Poll | | Global announcements should be: | Everlasting, 1 for each project. | | 0% | [ 0 ] | Temporary, when there is something new to announce. | | 100% | [ 6 ] | Holalala... No idea where the Ultimate artifact is. | | 0% | [ 0 ] |
| Total Votes : 6 |
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| | H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup | |
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Sir Albe Mage
Messages : 852 Quality Points : 452 Registration Date : 2015-07-16 Age : 28 Location : Aalborg, Denmark
| Subject: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2016-12-30, 05:14 | |
| This thread shows the creature lineup for the Witch faction for Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Succession Wars. The new Witch class comes with unique creatures belonging to swampy jungle territory. The lineup includes many monstrous creatures - for instance a giant toad and a fiercy Wyvern. Here you can see the stats for each creature, their abilities and their price. The thread will be updated with new sprites, stats and possibly new creatures when changes are made. Feel free to write comments about the lineup below Level 1TribalAttack: 2 Defense: 5 Damage: 1-3 Health: 6 Speed: 4 Base growth: 10 (+5) Abilities: None Cost: 65 Level 2WaspAttack: 4 Defense: 2 Damage: 2-5 Health: 10 Speed: 9 Base growth: 8 Abilities: Flying Cost: 150 Level 3LizardmanAttack: 5 Defense: 5 Shots: 12 Damage: 2-4 Health: 20 Speed: 4 Base growth: 7 Abilities: None Cost: 165 Level 3 upgradeLizardman WarriorAttack: 5 Defense: 7Shots: 24Damage: 2-6Health: 20 Speed: 5Base growth: 7 Abilities: None Cost: 230 Level 4ToadAttack: 7 Defense: 7 Damage: 3-8 Health: 35 Speed: 7 Base growth: 4 Abilities: Flying Cost: 370 Level 5MantisAttack: 8 Defense: 7 Damage: 8-12 Health: 45 Speed: 6 Base growth: 3 Abilities: Flying Cost: 550 Level 6TreantAttack: 9 Defense: 12 Damage: 10-16 Health: 85 Speed: 4 Base growth: 2 Abilities: Roots enemies in place Cost: 850 Level 7WyvernAttack: 11 Defense: 11 Damage: 15-30 Health: 90 Speed: 10 Base growth: 2 Abilities: Flying, 20% chance to poison enemies Cost: 1100 1
Last edited by Sir Albe on 2017-12-17, 04:41; edited 12 times in total | |
| | | Orzie Master Modder
Messages : 2163 Quality Points : 843 Registration Date : 2014-12-12 Age : 32 Location : Turkey
| Subject: DESIGNER'S NOTE - Witch Faction Lineup 2016-12-30, 05:14 | |
| DESIGNER'S NOTEThis text relies on the Designer's Note for Canonical Faction Lineups. Please make sure you've become familiar with the source text before making conclusions about the information presented below.1. New Faction for Heroes 2?As discussed before, Heroes 2 still has niches for creature concepts even with its strong limitations defining a specific old school fairy-tale atmosphere of the game. Although they mostly allow us to add some new creatures and bring more fuel to the fire, how are things in the case of adding a whole new faction with common traits for all creatures? Upon closer inspection, things turn to be much harder if we try to be more or less professional. First, Heroes 2 classes are divided by "profession archetypes". All of them are unique and don't replicate each other in any way (although adding the Wizard and the Necromancer in Heroes 2 already felt somewhat secondary, because we already had Warlock in Heroes 1, while the two mentioned above might be perceived as some kind of Warlock's split personality towards more contrasting good and evil, respectively). This leaves us several kinds of synonyms for warriors and spellcasters, the number of which in English language is limited if we keep in mind that the archetypes must be well-known and popular in the world by the time of 1996. Warriors: Viking, Bogatyr (Богатырь, Витязь, Варяг), Khan, Shogun, Vizir, Warlord, ...Viking is a typical Nordic style warrior suggested to us before, with Bogatyr (a word with a Tatar origin) being its Slavic equivalent implemented in Palm Kingdoms 2 and called Varangian (Варяг). Same goes for the Shogun who is a Japanese equivalent of a warlord with ruling privileges. The trouble with these concepts is that all of them are a some kind of hybrid of Knight and Barbarian, being also characters of ethnicity uncommon for Heroes 2 which is generally based on Ancient Greek and Medieval Western Europe concepts. The Varangian is a class which is added to a Heroes 2 clone with its own peculiar style developed by Russians, so that case is a little different and cannot be classified as an absolute analog of 7th faction added to Heroes 2. They didn't have an intention to create a Heroes 2 mod saving the atmosphere of the original game, because they were interested in creating their own atmosphere, but similar gameplay. Warlord is a too common term which apply to any kind of warrior class, while Khan or Sultan or Khalif or any other kind of Arabian monarch is too "terrain-specific" and too much shifted to the "royalty" category, to say the least. Popular Arabian concepts which found their place in well-known fairy-tales are always related to magic, because there was no Internet at that time and the information about Arabian countries was scarce, leaving many mysteries and wonders to talk about. With that said, only Vizir could make the day, but this term is not that common and there would be problems on the stage of lineup development, because of the "magic" problem I expressed in the previous paragraph. Spellcasters: Witch, Witcher, Artificer, Alchemist, Mage, Enchanter, Charmer, Thaumaturgist, Magus, ...Enchanter(tress), in fact, is a neutral term which goes along well with Sorcerer(ess). The only trouble here is that there is no ideas how to fill the lineup because there are barely 7 magical creatures which would fit the same chosen theme and fit to Heroes 2 at the same time. This is probably why in Heroes 3 Enchanters were added as standalone creatures resembling Heroes 2 warlock in exterior. Mage, Magus are present in the form of a single unit of the Wizard's domain. Charmer simply isn't that individual, while Thaumaturgist sounds complex and such a long name wouldn't even fit to Heroes 2 text fields. Also, the same argument about the lineup. Alchemist or Artificer are a questionable option because they intend a somewhat 3rd type of a hero - not specifically warrior and not specifically spellcaster, which may seem out of place for Heroes 2 but for sure tempting for some players. The Alchemist loses here because he is present on the adventure map, while the Artificer really could go well with the game... if it had enough good ideas for the lineup which is strictly limited by Heroes 2 fairy tale concept while the Golem and the Giant/Titan are already used, and the Gnome as some kind of artificer could be also introduced to the Wizard faction. In short, any kind of advanced technology more or less based on magic is already part of the Wizard while cruel experiments with living beings are performed by Warlocks. The concept of Vizir described above, however, could be in fact introduced because there still can be some desert flavor for Heroes 2 because some of its neutrals could (in theory) go well with that concept and they even had a desert background in the original game. This is present in the shape of the Dervish (former Gipsy), our new faction the official lineup topic for which is being currently developed. Yes, Dervish usually meant an ascetic travelling sage more than an actual powerful spellcaster nesting in a castle, but the fairy tales don't restrict us from adding some fantasy here. Finally, the Witch. A disadvantage here is that this concept is gender-specific just like the Sorceress and the Warlock, which is definitely dangerous. I would probably not introduce this class to the game ever, but when I came to the project, it was already there replacing Heroes 3 Fortress. People seem to like this concept, but I must admit that it still requires a decent rework to become more individual and not looking like a swamp variation of the Sorceress. It should at least have some Warlock's traits, probably even with some Necromancer flavor (voodoo and stuff), and of course, bring something unique to the game. For now, this "unique flavor" is introduced only in the shape of a giant Toad which was a Wizard creature in Heroes 2 beta. For some, even Heroes 3 Fortress could seem non-fitting to the game, which is self descriptive, but we will see how things will go. 2. Linking NWC Games TogetherHeroes 3 and Might and Magic VI really save the day if we speak about the Witch class. Since we have, from one side, a limitation that we don't want another variation of a Sorceress, and, from the other side, we don't want a simple pixelated form of H3 Fortress, the lineup should be noticeably altered. Might and Magic VI offers us a selection of creatures which are native to Enroth and its plot also offers us a nice background for the Witch class with the cult of Tsantsa and specific creatures wandering around Castle Ironfist. Some other concepts originate from other games of the series. - MMVI, MMVII, MMVIII, HIV:
The Treants are in fact another impersonation of Dendroids, but with an evil tone. Here is what we have in the official Heroes 3 SoD campaign dedicated to Gem's story: - Quote :
- I am becoming to feel quite at home in the Rampart Castle. I'm even starting to get accustomed to the dragons! Actually, it's the Dendroids that make me a little uncomfortable. Not them personally. They're really quite friendly. It's just that they remind me of a past I'd rather forget. I haven't seen moving trees since I was a little girl.
Obviously, this can be interpreted as Gem's bad experience with moving trees since she was a child in Enroth. The Sorceresses may have very well had troubles with the Witches even before The Succession Wars, since Noraston (the Sorceresses stronghold) is located in swamp area. 3. Too Many Giant Creatures?Two giant insects and one giant amphibian without special magics behind them? Yes, that's definitely a problem. However, such lineup is a result of putting together all advantages and disadvantages of such approach. The precedents of giant creatures are in the shape of mammals (Boar, Wolf) and, in fact, the Toad also could make it to the Wizard's lineup once. The gameplay niches of the Wasp and the Mantis, as well as their exterior, are pretty much convenient and save us from copying H3 concepts (the Dragonfly and the Gorgon which are D&D creatures and don't fit to simple H2 fairy-tale absolutely, also not having a background in MMVI like their substitutes). In short, D&D < simple giant creatures. D&D is a little bit too complex for a game like Heroes 2. This is why Owlbears from 2013 version didn't make it (not mentioning the fact that the graphics was taken from another game which is inacceptable for us). 4. ConclusionIn fact, Heroes 2 didn't need new factions at all. It was an individual and self-sufficient game with lots of stories to tell. Things it really needed were the flexible map editor, the larger variety of objects, the working RMG, probably a few new neutrals, and overall balanced gameplay. What we see here in H3SW with the new factions is a desperate effort to arrange things in a more or less proper way without burning the legacy left by Mister Kalu and Kivo back in the time. Probably, we can bring everything to the state when there will be no questions left, but Heroes 3 mania for adding new factions is not about us absolutely. We already have troubles with the existing ones. The 9th faction - The Heretic - will be the hardest nut to crack, but at least it has a key role in the new plot I plan to design for the new campaigns, based strongly on MMVI and uncovering more details about the Kreegans on Enroth and the destiny of Enrothians left behind after Heroes 3 came out in 1999. | |
| | | Ragoon Minotaur
Messages : 358 Quality Points : 350 Registration Date : 2016-05-30 Age : 26 Location : Wrocław, Poland
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-17, 10:48 | |
| - Sir Albe wrote:
- Feel free to write comments about the lineup below
Okay. About the lineup. I'll divide all monsters into 2 categories, inteligent and primal/wild/artificial. Every faction has mostly inteligent monsters: Knight: 7 inteligent, 0 wild Barbarian: 6 inteligent, 1 wild Sorceress: 5 inteligent, 2 wild Wizard: 4 inteligent, 3 wild/artificial Warlock: 4 inteligent, 3 wild Necromancer: I'll guess they're controlled so all inteligent Dervish: 6 inteligent, 1 wild WITCH: 2 inteligent, 5 WILDMy point is - it consist of too many monsters that hero couldn't realistically command. While they fit nicely I would recommend changing mantis. It fits the least from all of them. Humanoid could save the day there, like packed lizardman warrior which would fit as a bigger brother for the archer, basilisk which would be more snake like or rooster like so more in fairy-tale style, although it would not quite fix the problem, still better though. Another idea is a spitting plant, because all factions have 2 shooters exept necromancer and witch. Last idea is more of a favor for me, a little gratitude to my work. A pyromancer in a style of wild, primal mage which manipulates fire more than having real magic abilities. It could use fireballs (or just attack from one addictional hex away which would be revolutionary). The idea is from is inspired by my favourite game of currently better known game of dark souls where he is one of the selectable classes. It fits very well to swamp, could be ranged with no penalty because of the handaxe and I WOULD LOVE to make him for OUR mod <3 Pleaaseee :v WE NEED MORE HOUSES THAN NESTS IN DA JUNGLE | |
| | | Sir Albe Mage
Messages : 852 Quality Points : 452 Registration Date : 2015-07-16 Age : 28 Location : Aalborg, Denmark
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-17, 11:13 | |
| I completely agree about the mantis being the least fitting creature, both in terms of design and look. We talked a lot about the witch line-up and tried out a lot of things, but it is hard finding new creatures that fit well together. I like your proposal of the snake basilisk though, but I don't think it passes the criteria for H2 creatures. I am open to new proposals and also I don't know if mantis is supposed to be flying, but that would make 4(wasp, toad, mantis, wyvern) flying creatures which is too many in my opinion. I don't necessarily think another shooter is needed though. I find both H2 and H3 necromancer and H3 fortress interesting with only one ranged creature, so that would be fine for me. | |
| | | Ragoon Minotaur
Messages : 358 Quality Points : 350 Registration Date : 2016-05-30 Age : 26 Location : Wrocław, Poland
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-17, 13:00 | |
| Most dirty sketches ever XD THESE ARE ONLY IDEAS STILL Pyro would have bandages on himself as a part of clothing as well as tooth necklace or sth like that. Axe should look like this. And another idea, witch doctor. Thanks Albe for the idea So a big mask that shows mouth with leaves/spikes around it, big staff with a skull, leaves on legs etc. Didn't had an inspiration nor idea what to make of it :v This could be use as a reference | |
| | | Uhm Vampire
Messages : 446 Quality Points : 477 Registration Date : 2015-07-17 Age : 29 Location : Poland
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-17, 23:24 | |
| Some time ago I was thinking about some kind of a stone giant/golem, guardian spirit based on pre-colombian and Polynesian cultures. - Spoiler:
| |
| | | robizeratul Elf
Messages : 186 Quality Points : 32 Registration Date : 2015-07-01
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-18, 00:28 | |
| I would change the with town lineup. Firstly the mantis looks cool but it would be better as a neutral unit, I don't think it fits. In a swamp you would need something crawling, maybe a snake thing, or even better another Lizardman ( something inspired by the HOTA units). I would also demote the wivern to lvl 6 and make a new lvl 7 unit. Considering it's a witch town it's sad that we don't have any women. Ragoon said that there are to many monsters without intelligence, but it makes sense, the witch helps them and keeps them in line. Unlike other towns the with town is forced to work together and defend themselves...at least that's how I see it. The yare not organized like a proper "kingdom". That's why I would love to see the 7th unit a witch, or something similar. Basically a woman, human spellcaster. The one from ragoons picture looks perfect! When she swings her staff it could "power up" and a green poisonous skull ( or blob) could attack her enemies. Maybe make her do a "dance" or maker her a 2x creature and when she attacks she steps forward...there are many creative ideas you could do. Would love her as a lvl 7 monster! | |
| | | Orzie Master Modder
Messages : 2163 Quality Points : 843 Registration Date : 2014-12-12 Age : 32 Location : Turkey
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-18, 01:09 | |
| - Quote :
- Pyro would have bandages on himself as a part of clothing as well as tooth necklace or sth like that.
Pyro seems like a more or less acceptable name for Heroes 2, by the way. However, that name is very likely to be considered for the Heretic - Ragoon wrote:
WITCH: 2 inteligent, 5 WILD
My point is - it consist of too many monsters that hero couldn't realistically command. While they fit nicely I would recommend changing mantis. It fits the least from all of them. Humanoid could save the day there, like packed lizardman warrior which would fit as a bigger brother for the archer, basilisk which would be more snake like or rooster like so more in fairy-tale style, although it would not quite fix the problem, still better though. Another idea is a spitting plant, because all factions have 2 shooters exept necromancer and witch. I don't see such amount of 'wild' units for the Witch a problem. Try to look at it from another side: that faction may feel unique and different from the Sorceress by the help of that feature. Also try not to find any logic in Heroes 2 lineups - there ain't any. Visual appearance is what defines the lineup on the first place. Second, there is less necessity for multiplying the so-called "human professions" which, in fact, were present in Heroes 1-2 only for the Knight as 'pure human' faction and in the shape of the Rogue plus Nomad. While the Knight lineup is purely medieval (see Lords of the Realm 2), the Rogue and the Nomad are major archetypes just like they are shown in fairy tales (H2 rogue and H1 Nomad fit under that definition the most): Robin Hood and Arabian Nights, respectively. Any kind of human profession beyond our recently developed Pirate (also a major archetype) is not fitting to the Heroes 2 simplicity of form. Moreover, the less human units each faction has, the better. The Rogue and the Nomad were intentionally put to the desert castle because they have a strong unifying feature - the desert background in H2 which was used for neutrals. Probably, if it was not all about the old team's developments, such faction would never appear and all H2 neutrals stayed as neutrals. The Tribal is also questionable and he is for the Witch simply because it's better than a recolored Goblin which was in the mod before (who already has a tribal appearance, by the way), it existed in Might and Magic VI and it represents another type of human race, with darker skin, also being a nice strong Level 1 unit by design, not replicating other Heroes 2 creatures. It's more important than it seems. Any kinds of "slave traders", "doppelgangers", "fanatics", etc. belong to the group of complex human professions which don't have a clear selection of traits that even a child can name. Modern games have brought a lot of concepts, like the discussed Rakshasa or the Witch Doctor, but when we go back to fairy tales, there ain't any definition of how they would look. - Uhm wrote:
- Some time ago I was thinking about some kind of a stone giant/golem, guardian spirit based on pre-colombian and Polynesian cultures.
- Spoiler:
That would go as a cool adventure map object for the Swamp, but nothing related to a creature. The Idols, however, could be used as a possible structure for the Tribal dwelling as a growth amplifier. Or, a Grail Structure, by the way. - robizeratul wrote:
- I would change the with town lineup. Firstly the mantis looks cool but it would be better as a neutral unit, I don't think it fits. In a swamp you would need something crawling, maybe a snake thing, or even better another Lizardman ( something inspired by the HOTA units). I would also demote the wivern to lvl 6 and make a new lvl 7 unit. Considering it's a witch town it's sad that we don't have any women. Ragoon said that there are to many monsters without intelligence, but it makes sense, the witch helps them and keeps them in line. Unlike other towns the with town is forced to work together and defend themselves...at least that's how I see it. The yare not organized like a proper "kingdom".
That's why I would love to see the 7th unit a witch, or something similar. Basically a woman, human spellcaster. The one from ragoons picture looks perfect! When she swings her staff it could "power up" and a green poisonous skull ( or blob) could attack her enemies. Maybe make her do a "dance" or maker her a 2x creature and when she attacks she steps forward...there are many creative ideas you could do. Would love her as a lvl 7 monster! Okay, I'll reply with theses. - The Witch castle lineup is a result of pages and pages of discussions, with lots of presented variants being already considered and discarded. - Anything crawling like a snake is already a duplicate of Medusa and Hydra. - "Another Lizardman" is not about Heroes 2 where even the already existing Lizardman is breaking the game concept limitations on fairy tale concepts and all creatures are unique and not replicating each other. - We are not interested in making the Wyvern as a 6th level creature. It doesn't solve our problems, but creates new ones. Having the Wyvern as a 7th level creature with "+2" growth brings flavor to the game, gives the player a hint that Dragons are relative to it, but stronger, and finally, makes the Witch town different from Heroes 3 Fortress. - Considering that the Sorceresses are all women, there should have been a woman in their lineup as well, according to your logic. - There are already too much human-like spellcasters, and the Mystic from the Dervish faction is already breaking the rule. It was just better than an Orc with the Wolf's head. | |
| | | robizeratul Elf
Messages : 186 Quality Points : 32 Registration Date : 2015-07-01
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-19, 11:37 | |
| Very good points Orzie, as always! I saw that there has been a lot of discussion, just wanted to add another opinion.
It is hard if you have to design in those self imposed limits...there are no fairytales left haha
I was thinking of a chamelion unit. Or a chamelion humanoid hibrid...just a thought, he could go invisible for a few frames for his idle animation(edit:like the air elemental, i love that effect) and attack with his tongue, i think it wouls look cool...but dont think he fits.
This is not easy to do! Respect you guys more and more! | |
| | | NikitaTheTanner Nomad
Messages : 55 Quality Points : 12 Registration Date : 2015-10-15 Location : Toronto
| Subject: Lineup 2017-01-20, 08:22 | |
| Hmm, if Viking is not going to happen (which is still a very sad thing in my mind), why not give the Wolfman and the Werewolf to the Witch?
Yeah, I know that there are already wolves and Anubis, maybe even Cerberus, but still, it's rather distinctive from all of them. And infinitely more magical than giant Mantis!
Place Toad at Tier 5 and Werewolf can be moved to Tier 4. If done right, it will look very different to all other canines. And it definitely fits the theme of the castle.
But, it's only an idea.
PS. To make him more unique, he can look like a human in rags, but animation changes into werewolf. It will be a pain to animate though, but might be very cool. Kinda like vampire changes into bat when flying. | |
| | | Saki Skeleton
Messages : 8 Quality Points : 4 Registration Date : 2017-01-20
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-20, 09:20 | |
| Some fair points have been made here, but, to be honest, I don't realy understand this one. - Orzie wrote:
[size=18]Warriors: Viking is a typical Nordic style warrior suggested to us before, with Bogatyr (a word with a Tatar origin) being its Slavic equivalent implemented in Palm Kingdoms 2 and called Varangian (Варяг). Same goes for the Shogun who is a Japanese equivalent of a warlord with ruling privileges. The trouble with these concepts is that all of them are a some kind of hybrid of Knight and Barbarian, being also characters of ethnicity uncommon for Heroes 2 which is generally based on Ancient Greek and Medieval Western Europe concepts. While it's true Viking feels like a hybrid of Knight and Barbarian, the argument of Vikings being not strictly tied to the theme of Medieval western Europe doesn't make a lot of sense. Vikings were one of the most influential peoples in western Europe, especially in England and France up till late XI century. They are actually a huge part of western-European medieval culture and history. They are also very easily (albeit incorrectly) recognisable, which also seems to be a factor in a group being deemed up for inclusion in the game. They can also fill the niche for the snow terrain, but what's more compelling to me is kind of a paradox - even though they are kind of a mix between a knight and barbarian, they could be made into a faction stronger (in a sense) but more expensive than the former two, providing maybe a bit more diverse and out-of-ordinary approach in HoMM2. - Quote :
- Any kinds of "slave traders", "doppelgangers", "fanatics", etc. belong to the group of complex human professions which don't have a clear selection of traits that even a child can name. Modern games have brought a lot of concepts, like the discussed Rakshasa or the Witch Doctor, but when we go back to fairy tales, there ain't any definition of how they would look.
And what about a shaman? The two most typical depictions and associations people have with shamans are either Native Americans or Africans. The latter would blend in quite nicely with Ragoon's idea, if you ask me. | |
| | | Orzie Master Modder
Messages : 2163 Quality Points : 843 Registration Date : 2014-12-12 Age : 32 Location : Turkey
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-20, 15:22 | |
| - NikitaTheTanner wrote:
- Hmm, if Viking is not going to happen (which is still a very sad thing in my mind), why not give the Wolfman and the Werewolf to the Witch?
Yeah, I know that there are already wolves and Anubis, maybe even Cerberus, but still, it's rather distinctive from all of them. And infinitely more magical than giant Mantis!
Place Toad at Tier 5 and Werewolf can be moved to Tier 4. If done right, it will look very different to all other canines. And it definitely fits the theme of the castle.
But, it's only an idea.
PS. To make him more unique, he can look like a human in rags, but animation changes into werewolf. It will be a pain to animate though, but might be very cool. Kinda like vampire changes into bat when flying. A hypothetical Werewolf can happen for the Witch in future versions, moving Mantis to the neutrals and being on the level 4, moving a redesigned Toad to level 5. It's bad to have it in the Witch domain necessarily (I thought about the Werewolf as a neutral because in fact it's more related to undead in some way especially in the prism of Heroes 2 concept), but giant mammals and insects are too simple and uninteresting to add many more of them to the faction lineups. A controversy between level 4 Vampire and level 4 Werewolf seems to be pleasant to an eye though. If someone from the team will be able to provide a decent concept of the level 4 Werewolf not interfering with the grey-ish gamma of the Treant but fitting the Witch color scheme where brown and black are basic + green, yellow and turquoise are auxiliary, we can talk. A simple concept of the Werewolf in MMVI The only trouble of that concept is that we already have Wolves and Anubites, and supposedly will have Cerberi for the Heretic. It's freaking too much dogheads. - Saki wrote:
- Some fair points have been made here, but, to be honest, I don't realy understand this one.
- Orzie wrote:
[size=18]Warriors: Viking is a typical Nordic style warrior suggested to us before, with Bogatyr (a word with a Tatar origin) being its Slavic equivalent implemented in Palm Kingdoms 2 and called Varangian (Варяг). Same goes for the Shogun who is a Japanese equivalent of a warlord with ruling privileges. The trouble with these concepts is that all of them are a some kind of hybrid of Knight and Barbarian, being also characters of ethnicity uncommon for Heroes 2 which is generally based on Ancient Greek and Medieval Western Europe concepts. While it's true Viking feels like a hybrid of Knight and Barbarian, the argument of Vikings being not strictly tied to the theme of Medieval western Europe doesn't make a lot of sense. Vikings were one of the most influential peoples in western Europe, especially in England and France up till late XI century. They are actually a huge part of western-European medieval culture and history. They are also very easily (albeit incorrectly) recognisable, which also seems to be a factor in a group being deemed up for inclusion in the game. They can also fill the niche for the snow terrain, but what's more compelling to me is kind of a paradox - even though they are kind of a mix between a knight and barbarian, they could be made into a faction stronger (in a sense) but more expensive than the former two, providing maybe a bit more diverse and out-of-ordinary approach in HoMM2.
- Quote :
- Any kinds of "slave traders", "doppelgangers", "fanatics", etc. belong to the group of complex human professions which don't have a clear selection of traits that even a child can name. Modern games have brought a lot of concepts, like the discussed Rakshasa or the Witch Doctor, but when we go back to fairy tales, there ain't any definition of how they would look.
And what about a shaman? The two most typical depictions and associations people have with shamans are either Native Americans or Africans. The latter would blend in quite nicely with Ragoon's idea, if you ask me. A hypothetical Viking would require a full set of Nordic mythology assets (preferably weapon-wielding like Svartalfar because it's supposedly a Might-oriented faction), which is alien to Heroes 2 and was never present in any of the modern MM games ( Heroes 1-4, Might and Magic 6-8 ). It was only obsolete Might&Magic IX set in Axeoth which first introduced the concept of Nordic-styled gods, but it brought complex concepts at the same time, and nothing like simply fairy tales. Heroes 2 in fact contains a lot of European fairy tales, but the exterior of creatures is modernized to that look when we have pretty Tolkien-styled Elves instead of crawling obnoxious brownies (BTW, a "brownie" is a creature fitting to Heroes 2, let's remember that for future). If it was another team with another view - it could happen, but I must remind that initially Heroes 2 doesn't require any new factions. Let's leave Heroes 3 castle adding mania behind. Say, you have a Tolkien-styled Elves and Dwarves, and near standing Svartalfar. Which names are more popular and which concept's name can be recognized by a kid playing in the game in 1996 if looked on the creature exterior? If we speak about terrain-specific concepts, the Desert creatures like the Genie are famous enough, while for the Snow terrain I cannot name a very well-known creature in fairy tales or mythology except the Jotunn which is in fact already present in the shape of the Wizard's Giant, and Yeti (or Bigfoot which may fit to Heroes 2 more). Also, adding a Snow-specific creature is a dangerous way. Snow terrain is different from the rest (which is expressed in the adventure map objects when we have snowy versions of them), and a white-ish Snow creature standing on lava is something close to a Paladin standing on water. -- A hypothetical Shaman would require the apparel of the Tribal and the Lizardman Warrior (I'm working on it currently), leaving those two naked. Also, we already have too much human spellcasters, with the Acolyte already pushing the limits (but it was necessary to implement it due to the very empty vacancy on Dervish level 2 and the concept of the Cult of Baa). We don't have such major scale problems in the case of the Witch faction. Like I said above, a Werewolf is a much more interesting option. There is another thought about the Dervish's Medusa also, since it's generally a Swamp creature. But two dogheads in one castle is definitely too much. | |
| | | NikitaTheTanner Nomad
Messages : 55 Quality Points : 12 Registration Date : 2015-10-15 Location : Toronto
| Subject: Witch Lineup 2017-01-20, 21:58 | |
| Another option instead of werewolf might be a Tier 1 Will-o-the-Wisp. Designs and colors may vary drastically, and the creature can teleport, fly or levitate(run) depending on the tactical role. Definitely fits the swamp theme and is magical enough for Heroes 2. Another option to think about, I think.
Medusa fits the Dervish faction very good, at least theme wise. Snakes can live in the desert too, so I don't see any problem here. Plus, the ruins fit the desert really well! It seems much more appropriate for Dervish, than for a Witch.
P.S. I might be wrong, but bringing Tolkien into Viking debate is kinda wrong IMHO. As far as I know a lot of stuff in his works is inspired by Norse mythology. I mean both trolls and elves come from Norse mythology, so... For example | |
| | | Ragoon Minotaur
Messages : 358 Quality Points : 350 Registration Date : 2016-05-30 Age : 26 Location : Wrocław, Poland
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-20, 23:57 | |
| Will-o-wisp is a miss (I dont see it as strong as even a skeleton), but I will try to design lv 4 werewolf soon and we will see, already talked about it with Orzie. - NikitaTheTanner wrote:
- Place Toad at Tier 5 and Werewolf can be moved to Tier 4. If done right, it will look very different to all other canines. And it definitely fits the theme of the castle.
I will use this as a referance (skyrim): | |
| | | Baronus Nomad
Messages : 64 Quality Points : 1 Registration Date : 2016-06-12
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-25, 04:06 | |
| Maybe werewolf by Sower and other in VCMI Design Team will be better. Its jadamean similiar to Enroth style creature. | |
| | | Orzie Master Modder
Messages : 2163 Quality Points : 843 Registration Date : 2014-12-12 Age : 32 Location : Turkey
| Subject: Re: H3SW: Witch Faction Lineup 2017-01-25, 04:31 | |
| You should probably check the Ragoon's graphics thread where we already discuss viable variants in a style closer to Heroes 2. There isn't much point in discussing a concept overhaul, because we've already got it covered good enough for Heroes 2. | |
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