H3SW: Classic Faction Lineups

This thread shows the creature lineups for the six classic HoMM II factions with the new creatures added in Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Succession Wars as well as the neutral creatures. You can see the stats for each creature, their abilities and their price. The thread will be updated with new sprites, stats ect. when changes are made. Feel free to write comments about the lineups below

Stats updated to version v0.8.2 (WIP)

Knight lineup:

Sorceress lineup:

Wizard lineup:

Necromancer lineup:

Warlock lineup:

Barbarian lineup:

Neutral creatures:

DESIGNER'S NOTE

1. Heroes 2 Creature Basis

If we are to speak about design, Heroes 2 creature concepts demonstrate some peculiar properties. First and foremost, they all are simple. I would even say that Heroes 1-2 is a somewhat childish game.
This is expressed by the fact that most of these concepts belong to the most simplified and worldwide popular visual images: Greek mythology, Anglo-Saxon knightage and European fairy tales. Unlike Heroes 3, which is heavily based on modern fantasy like Dungeons & Dragons and feature rather rare mythology concepts (Nagas coming from Induism as an example), Heroes 2 possesses only the most well-known names, especially the first 4 factions - the Knight, the Barbarian, the Sorceress, and the Warlock - inherited from Heroes 1. The Wizard and the Necromancer factions first introduced in Heroes 2 avoid the rules a little, introducing J.R.R. Tolkien style creatures (Halfling, Roc, Mage) and a little flavor of Jewish mythology (Halfling, Golem, Giant). Yet, the Giant/Titan is again stylized under the Greek warrior concept. The Necromancer faction is in fact a hodgepodge featuring Monster Squad type of lineup, looking like a Halloween party.

In this situation, if one would be to add new factions or new creatures, serious problems could be met even at the stage of concept development. The "allowed" concepts which are still well known and look more or less fitting to the fairy tale atmosphere of Heroes 2 are:

 Basilisk and Cockatrice (Greek Mythology)
 Satyr (Greek Mythology)
 Leprechaun (Anglo-Saxon fairy tales)
 Harpy (Greek Mythology)
 Wyvern (Anglo-Saxon mythology/fairy tales)
 Black Knight (Anglo-Saxon fairy tales)
 Werewolf (European fairy tales)

The Leprechaun already exists in the game in the shape of an adventure game object, so introducing it to the game is less likely.


Questionable options also exist:

 Any kind of giant mammal, reptile or insect (see Boar, Wolf, and Toad - the latter for Heroes 2 beta)
 Manticore (Arabic mythology)
 Any kind of Egyptian god impersonation (see Mummy)
 Gnome (European fairy tales)
 Any other kind of European dragons not presented in Heroes 2 (see MMVI Wyrm, ditto Heroes 4 King of Dragons)

Finally, there are concepts which became widely known up to 2016. This is D&D and other modern fantasy concepts, including those used in Heroes 3. They are much more famous than in 1996 now, and the impression of them in the games of 2016 differs from what was in 1996. There are mature people who treat Beholders and Lizardmen as natural, because they existed all their life.


2. Why Might & Magic VI?

Might and Magic VI: The Mandate of Heaven is a CRPG created by New World Computing (the creators of HoMM series if someone doesn't know that in 2016) set in the same universe as Heroes 1-2: Enroth. It is even set on the same continent and continues the story of Enroth 10 years later the War of the Enrothian Succession featured in Heroes 2.

MMVI features a drastically different graphic style, but continues the same story from another point of view - the eyes of 4 adventurers called the Heroes of Enroth. Before (and during) the events of Might and Magic VI, Roland is captured by Kreegans, Archibald is freed from stone, the Kreegan Hive on the Enroth continent is destroyed along with the Kreegan Queen, and Catherine leaves Enroth for Antagarich where Nighonians allied with Kreegans started a full-scale war against Erathia.

Choosing Might and Magic VI as one of the major anchors for continuation of the Enrothian storyline, I decided that some of MMVI concepts are also able to fill the manifold niches left in the Heroes 2 faction lineups. Yes, some of them don't completely fit to the Heroes 2 basis mentioned above. However, the number of vacancies and the required gameplay niches for the faction lineups force us to enter a full scale principle of a lesser evil.

This is why some of the concepts introduced in the game for v0.8 beta may seem inappropriate for some users. However, they are also created with the as maximum simplicity of form as possible. Heroes 3 beholders (adjusted by Ajit, Agar's follower) feature long tentacles which became familiar to every Heroes player. However, Heroes 2 pixel style doesn't allow such complexity of form. This is why MMVI beholder (created by Agar himself according to the lore) was chosen by me as a new Warlock creature for v0.8 beta.

MMVI creatures:

3. Conclusion

Some of the new creatures for the faction lineups may seem questionable for people who never played MMVI or MM games in general. That is, however, a likely feature of the project which unites "both universes" (since many players don't even know about the true story of HoMM universe and the true origin of Kreegans). Depending on how it will look in game, some of the creature concepts may change in future updates, but right now I would like to leave things as they are.

I get your point with the beholder, at first i just thought it was a little out of place. but yea, i did only play the heroes games

just some questions:

- will the harpy get an upgrade (so it will gain the no retaliation ability)?

- and what about the fortress and 'dessert' castle, are they still too early in progress to be a part of 0.8? it just seemed in some of the threads, that (at least) the creatures were nearly done

- and lastly, didn't you used to have a upgraded skeleton, or a new model, with the red feather on? it was pretty sweet. I hope you don't scrap your work, and put cancelled units out as neutrals

but holy s*** your work is awesome, cant wait till it comes out!

Quote :

- will the harpy get an upgrade (so it will gain the no retaliation ability)?

Currently I think that this is too much for the Barbarian who has Attack skill as a primary focus. Having a Harpy which receives a full retaliation is more atmospheric and more in the spirit of H2 Barbarian gameplay, as I think.
Also, there may not be an upgrade for the Harpy ever. Personally, I see Harpies as low-conscience creatures (because they dwell in water nests and not in pyramids or skyscrapers) collecting various trinkets in their lairs and hunting on their prey like some birds do. For such type of creatures Heroes 2 doesn't intend upgrades. They are simply not "civilized" enough. The only exception from this rule is Dragons, but from another point of view they may have a developed consciousness (in some universes Dragons are way smarter than humans).

Quote :

- and what about the fortress and 'dessert' castle, are they still too early in progress to be a part of 0.8?

The respective threads will appear a little later. You can see that these factions have specific sections here in the Development Board.

Quote :

- and lastly, didn't you used to have a upgraded skeleton, or a new model, with the red feather on? it was pretty sweet. I hope you don't scrap your work, and put cancelled units out as neutrals Smile

v0.8 should have only H2 upgrades except the case of the Rogue who now belongs to a faction. If there would be an upgrade to Skeleton (which is unlikely, Peasant has more chances to receive an upgrade and we already have a draft for it), it would be something more than a Skeleton with a little accessory worn. It would be more like a Skeleton wearing some kind of armor like it's implemented in Heroes 3.
So no, that graphics may be considered scrapped. If someone wants to use it, why not. I hope Kivo would be not against that since it's generally a frankensteined creature.

alright, thanks for the anwsers! and yea i saw the seperate threads for the factions - i just hope they will make it to the 0.8 release. I can imagine how hard it is to make the townscreens to fit the original style

It is hell of a work, yes. The Witch won't have an updated townscreen as well as the majority of other factions. For now only the Knight and Dervish are in the works, and probably, a somewhat reworked versions of the Barbarian (worked out by Uhm) and Sorceress (somehow touched by Agar) may also be seen in v0.8 beta.

The specified townscreen threads will be also created in respective subforums. I see it in the shape of threads with full townscreens and detailed info on each building (icon, cost, requirements). Yet, we didn't change the requirements yet.

Hello, this is my first post and I don't want to sound too cocky, but I would like to express my opinion.
First and foremost: your work far exceeds that of anyone who has ever tried to revitalize the Heroes of Might and Magic, period.
Second: You (Orzie) come from Russia, a great Slavic land whose folklore is enriched by many authors and who still takes credit for every other Slavic folklore tale. I know this because I hail from the land of Croatia and am often confused when I see that some tales from my country are classified under Russian. USE THAT! I know that it might be too much of a job, but you managed to pull off something amazing...
Third: Wouldn't it be fair if all of the units got a second upgrade, and if you removed the third upgrade from Dark Dragon? Also, wouldn't it be fair if you tried to make all the level 7 units a bit more equal in sense of HP and weekly growth?

Hello! Nice to meet new persons here, please feel yourself at home.

The thing about Russian mythology is that Heroes 1-2 (and subsequent NWC games) are built on the concept of western folklore + Dungeons&Dragons (for the latter games). My primary design ideas didn't include anything from the Slavic mythology because it is in fact more of an eastern thing. It just doesn't feel right for me personally; perhaps any other designer would have another vision on it.

There was even a set of ideas for a might-oriented class which might use such kind of concepts, along with some previously unused Nordic mythology assets like Yeti.
Thread on Forums of Enroth
Thread on the Russian forum branch

However in my personal vision this class doesn't fit because of the things said above. Yes, the game might benefit from the third might class (but we plan to make the Heretic anyway), but slavic mythology just doesn't feel too HoMM, and no HoMM asset really utilizes it (unlike some Arabian concepts like Genie and Manticore). So, in fact we didn't have a precedent from NWC and thus we are risking ourselves in breaking the game's atmosphere. But of course like I said before, another designer might seem it fine, and there are even people who don't care about HoMM concept, playing with 20+ different towns at once (see VCMI community for Heroes 3) and feeling the game better when there are a lot of factions to choose from.

If there was such thing as optional factions for H3SW, I probably would not be against it, but clearly I wouldn't include it because the idea of the mod is to connect NWC games and develop a plot which is primarily based on NWC ideas (Might and Magic VI in the case of H3SW where we are supposed to meet Roland, Archibald and other guys once again, and tell their story further). So, even the Forge faction and Cyborg class feel more right to me, although it would be really difficult to design them to convince people that they really belong to the game, since not all Heroes fans played Might&Magic rpg games and thus don't know the background lore of the games.

Quote :

Wouldn't it be fair if all of the units got a second upgrade, and if you removed the third upgrade from Dark Dragon?

You know, when we design a game which have traits of both H2 and H3, we often have a side to choose. Personally, I think that Heroes 2 upgrade system is more interesting. Also, we should mention that Heroes 2 creatures are even designed in that way so that they cannot be upgraded, like the Boar or the Wolf. There are "conscious" and "relatively unconscious" creatures. Fiddling with this might really break the game atmosphere.

Don't know what Dark Dragon you do talk about, we don't have anything like this in the game (anymore). We will have Heroes 2 creatures plus our own designed ones, and no WoG rudiments are present.

Concerning the upgrades and growth - we will try the concept of +2 creatures (Paladin, Cyclops) and see what comes out. It's no surprise that the balance is a matter of REALLY BIG playing time and A LOT of statistics. If we succeed (more or less), it will be much more interesting than in H3. Not even mentioning the different magic system, etc.

Orzie wrote:

It just doesn't feel right for me personally; perhaps any other designer would have another vision on it.

And you have every right to do what feels right by you, and I respect that and you to the fullest

Orzie wrote:

Don't know what Dark Dragon you do talk about, we don't have anything like this in the game (anymore). We will have Heroes 2 creatures plus our own designed ones, and no WoG rudiments are present.

My apologies, I wrote that wrong. I was asking about the Green-Red-Black Dragon upgrades that Warlock has, but by reading your answer I understood what the answer would have looked like.
I am very excited to see that this mod is still alive, as I am following it since 2013.
Then I managed to get my hands on it and I saw that there were many other units (as well as upgrades for those units) such as Cyclops King or upgraded Hydra, and the Witch Faction. Did those ideas got scrapped or am I on the wrong forum?
Thank you for the reply!

These creatures were scrapped because the whole concept of upgrades was revisited. (And they looked really poor anyway, because someone who made them clearly misunderstood how the Photoshop's Hue operation should be properly used).

We do not guarantee that some new upgrades won't appear in future, but upgrading every creature for sure is against Heroes 2 graphical concept like I said above. The creatures simply don't support that because they are meant to look simple.

Hello, I've got a message from our fellow Kivo about the prices of units:

Kivo wrote:

Hey dude, so I just noticed the statistic changes, I forgot my login to the forum so would be awesome if you could just write my opinion: I really dislike how the costs have been changed to for example Orc: 105, Wolf: 245 Harpy: 305, like why cant they be 100, 250, and 300? It makes it so much easier to remember plus looks a lot neater I really dont think 5 gold is gonna make many differences. HoMM2 and HoMM3 mainly kept the prices rounded to 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, rarely was it 380 etc...

I believe Sir Albe worked on the stats

I really dislike seeing costs like 105, 245, etc

3600 for Titans? Looks so much better as 3500

It just looks very confusing, more difficult to remember, unappealing etc, the factions can still be balanced with more rounded figures that HoMM2 and HoMM3 kept to

I understand for lvl 1 creatures having number like 45, 55, 60, because the ratio is smaller but for larger figures its a mess. So these are just the points that Id love if you could write up there, so Sir Albe could hopefully make changes before release.

Nice to hear from good old fellar Kivo again I thought about this myself and I couldn't quite decide between "as close as true numbers" (the balance is not perfect) or more rounded numbers, but I would like to hear what you guys think. I am open to both options

I agree with Kivo here, to a certain degree. Maybe not as much as 100gold in titans, but for example 795 gold for a Mage is triggering me xd Or 980 gold for an archmage.

I would do it like that:
Price 0-99: rounded to 5
Price 100-499: rounded to 10
Price 500-1999: rounded to 50
Price >2000: rounded to 100

I suppose we can do that anyway, because such small difference won't matter for the game. Only if we speak about far future, there might be a dilemma or two with some of the creatures or buildings, but generally it's a matter of long online testing, while we don't have an army of testers (having enough skill to play effectively) right now.

So let the aesthetics rule for now.

Creature prices have now been rounded to more neat looking numbers. I decided on an acceptable rounding error of 2,5% of the exact creature price, but I broke it sometimes to get some nicer looking numbers. Take a look here and at the creature balance thread and tell me what you think. I of course also did the rounding of the witch and dervish creatures that are not shown here