[Feature Request] Phoenix Rebirth

Some time ago I started messing around with the game source code, since I learned to code and the instructions in the Ironfist video seemed pretty straightforward. I started adding some mini-features I really wanted in the game. While there are many of them that I would really love the Ironfist team to implement, this one takes a special place in my heart so I decided to share it here.

Phoenixes should have the rebirth ability. It is no secret that Heroes II is pretty unbalanced when it comes to factions - on large maps, if you don't have any Wizard or Warlock towns you are pretty much doomed to die, since there is no way you can beat the big guys. Here is a demo video I made:



I implemented it very simply: once per combat each stack of Phoenixes get a 100% true resurrection (aka the whole stack is revived). This may (or may not) be overpowered, but this could easily be tweaked.

This is an interesting idea worth exploring.

In terms of army power, this ability will give a boost to the Phoenixes and especially against the armies of the Knight and the Barbarian.

I also see some problems with this ability.
First of all the more Phoenixes in the troop, the more difficult it is to benefit from the ability.
Roughly 4 to 5 Phoenixes is okay, but with 20 Phoenixes it becomes more complicated.

On the one hand, the player with the Phoenixes has to make sure that all his Phoenixes are decimated in order to benefit from their ability.
And on the other hand, the player who plays against the Phoenixes must make sure not to decimate the whole troop to avoid triggering their ability, and even rather run away instead of trigger the ability.

For example, a player attacking a wandering troop of Phoenixes would be better off attacking them in a series of attacks.
A first time to reduce the number of Phoenixes as much as possible without trigger their ability.
And a second time to defeat them completely.
This results in a micromanagement that is not necessarily interesting.

One solution to remedy this would be to have each Phoenix in the troop to resurrect once as soon as it is decimated and then removed as a priority after each loss of the troop.
But, basically, it would be the same as doubling the life points of the Phoenixes.

That's why I would see more this ability (modified) being linked to the possession of an artifact.
The hero would have to possess an artifact for the Phoenixes in his army to have this ability.

Will the mini-features you have added be easily integrated into Project Ironfist? Ideally as options?
What other mini-features have you added, if not secret?

Have you also seen the new project "Free Heroes of Might and Magic II" (fheroes2)?
The initial goal of the project is a complete and faithful remake of Heroes 2 with modern multiplayer, high resolution support and improved AI, to start with, and will add modding possibilities and add-ons later on.

It could be interesting to have your mini-features for this project too.

Unknown_Hero wrote:

This is an interesting idea worth exploring.

In terms of army power, this ability will give a boost to the Phoenixes and especially against the armies of the Knight and the Barbarian.

I also see some problems with this ability.
First of all the more Phoenixes in the troop, the more difficult it is to benefit from the ability.
Roughly 4 to 5 Phoenixes is okay, but with 20 Phoenixes it becomes more complicated.

On the one hand, the player with the Phoenixes has to make sure that all his Phoenixes are decimated in order to benefit from their ability.
And on the other hand, the player who plays against the Phoenixes must make sure not to decimate the whole troop to avoid triggering their ability, and even rather run away instead of trigger the ability.

For example, a player attacking a wandering troop of Phoenixes would be better off attacking them in a series of attacks.
A first time to reduce the number of Phoenixes as much as possible without trigger their ability.
And a second time to defeat them completely.
This results in a micromanagement that is not necessarily interesting.

One solution to remedy this would be to have each Phoenix in the troop to resurrect once as soon as it is decimated and then removed as a priority after each loss of the troop.
But, basically, it would be the same as doubling the life points of the Phoenixes.

That's why I would see more this ability (modified) being linked to the possession of an artifact.
The hero would have to possess an artifact for the Phoenixes in his army to have this ability.

I was inspired from later Heroes games to add this ability. That's why I implemented it this way. I feel like the best way is to have an ability button somewhere, which can be triggered at will once per combat, but triggers automatically when the stack dies (like in H4). Also not sure about the 100% resurrection, but this way 2 Phoenixes take out a Titan (but not a Black Dragon).

Unknown_Hero wrote:

Will the mini-features you have added be easily integrated into Project Ironfist? Ideally as options?
What other mini-features have you added, if not secret?

Here is a short list:

• New spell, Disenchant (and Mass version) that dispels enemy beneficial spells (I've seen the idea on the forum, but I don't exactly remember which topic)
  
• Stables and Arenas work individually (thank you @Unknown_Hero for the idea)
  
• Right-clicking an already visited Shrine or a Witch's Hut shows what spell/skill it has.
  
• Scripting functions for almost all configurable map objects (Shrines, Chests, Wagons, Map Events, Ultimate Artifact etc.) that allow the mapmaker to check/change their contents.
  
• Mines can be converted to other types through scripting (with the map sprite change, like in Abandoned Mine)
  
• Holy Word only damages one target creature (idea from H4, anyway, I never use this spell nor Holy Shout   )
  
• Spell casting by scripting combat (still buggy, but it works quite ok)
  
• Alchemist Tower allows you to choose which artifacts to remove (but changed so that each cursed artifact costs 750 gold, instead of all of them). Maybe you don't want to get rid of that Heart of Ice you have, but the Tax Lien is getting on your nerves
  
• Witch's Hut skill can be denied. Let's face it: We all save before going there. And if you don't, just ignore the "No" button (the AI is not affected by this change).
  
• Mage Guild opens even if the visiting hero doesn't have a Magic Book. After the Magic Book dialog, the game jumps to the Mage Guild regardless of the answer (I added this because quite a few times I was frustrated by my lack of money )
  
• OO access to Lua functions (example: hro.grantSpell(spell) instead of GrantSpell(hro, spell)). This makes scripting so much easier, imo, currently only fields are accessible this way in Ironfist, methods are not
  
• Stone Liths have teleport sound (I am not sure why they don't have one in the original H2, they do in H1)
  
• Free dwellings show a picture of what creature they offer when visited (coz I love pictures more than text )
  

I was planning to add more, but this Phoenix one really pushed me to share it here, because all non-Wizard non-Warlock factions are very underpowered, and I felt this could be a good way to buff the Sorceress (not sure about the other towns, though...).

Other ideas I have but I didn't implement (maybe the Ironfist team can take a look at them   ):

• Stone Liths doesn't block heroes when the other side is occupied, instead hero interaction occurs (attack or trade), like in H3.
  
• Other hero power-ups work individually (like Artesian Springs, Wells, Oasis etc.)
  
• More scripting functions, as there are never too many options
  
• Cursed artifacts are untradable (idea from H1). This has dual-purpose, it makes getting rid of them from the main hero more difficult and it gives the Alchemist Tower more attention.
  
• Custom dialogs (I hate the game's code for dialogs and message boxes, so I am not sure I will ever do this one, but I certainly like the idea)
  

Unknown_Hero wrote:

Have you also seen the new project "Free Heroes of Might and Magic II" (fheroes2)?
The initial goal of the project is a complete and faithful remake of Heroes 2 with modern multiplayer, high resolution support and improved AI, to start with, and will add modding possibilities and add-ons later on.

Yes, I know about the project and a few years ago I tried it on my mobile device. It is basically VCMI for H2. I haven't tried it since then, but I will probably return to it now that it's here on the forum

Nice list of changes, some are also on my list, and some are already available with the new fheroes2 project.

I also have spells similar to your Disenchant spells, and I'm curious to know the cost and level of your version of the spells.
Here's for my version:

Disenchantment
Level: 2
Cost: 7
Type: Combat
Target: 1 enemy
Duration: Instant
Rarity: 10%

Effect: Removes all positive spells on an enemy troop without removing the negative spells.

Mass Disenchantment
Level: 4
Cost: 16
Type: Combat
Target: All enemies
Duration: Instant
Rarity: 8%

Effect: Removes all positive spells on all enemy troops without removing the negative spells.

DarkAtom wrote:

Yes, I know about the project and a few years ago I tried it on my mobile device. It is basically VCMI for H2. I haven't tried it since then, but I will probably return to it now that it's here on the forum

The new fheroes2 project has made a fabulous improvement in all areas compared to the old project.

A new "main version" comes out every month and "automatic intermediate versions" come out after every change in the program, so that you can test the latest updated version all the time, it's really well done.

For now, they are concentrating more on the PC version.
They prefer to start from a solid base before developing versions for mobile devices.

Unknown_Hero wrote:

Nice list of changes, some are also on my list, and some are already available with the new fheroes2 project.

I also have spells similar to your Disenchant spells, and I'm curious to know the cost and level of your version of the spells.
Here's for my version:

Disenchantment
Level: 2
Cost: 7
Type: Combat
Target: 1 enemy
Duration: Instant
Rarity: 10%

Effect: Removes all positive spells on an enemy troop without removing the negative spells.

Mass Disenchantment
Level: 4
Cost: 16
Type: Combat
Target: All enemies
Duration: Instant
Rarity: 8%

Effect: Removes all positive spells on all enemy troops without removing the negative spells.

Nice spells, but not sure why they are so expensive
My versions are:
Disenchant
Level: 2
Cost: 4
Type: Combat
Target: 1 enemy
Duration: Instant

Mass Disenchant
Level: 4
Cost: 11
Type: Combat
Target: All enemies
Duration: Instant

Not even sure what the spell rarity numbers mean in the code, I put 250 and 500, respectively. Cure, for example has 250.

Maybe I should make my spells a bit more expensive, because at the moment they are cheaper than Dispel, but I don't think there are many cases where somebody would use 7 mana for a Disenchant rather than a good old , otherwise it will become a useless spell, like Disrupting Ray.

Unknown_Hero wrote:

The new fheroes2 project has made a fabulous improvement in all areas compared to the old project.

A new "main version" comes out every month and "automatic intermediate versions" come out after every change in the program, so that you can test the latest updated version all the time, it's really well done.

For now, they are concentrating more on the PC version.
They prefer to start from a solid base before developing versions for mobile devices.

I think the project will be way better than VCMI, because H3 already has the HD mod, however H2 is currently stuck in 640x480 (unless you want to go to H3SW with HD mod). I guess fheroes2 will become the VCMI of H2 and Project Ironfist will be something like ERA, if the projects continue going. Though I already love Ironfist more than ERA because there is already a new town almost implemented (WoG never did this in its 19 years of existence)

DarkAtom wrote:

Nice spells, but not sure why they are so expensive

Maybe I should make my spells a bit more expensive, because at the moment they are cheaper than Dispel, but I don't think there are many cases where somebody would use 7 mana for a Disenchant rather than a good old , otherwise it will become a useless spell, like Disrupting Ray.

Yes, I set their costs higher because they don't remove negative spells, unlike Dispel Magic spells, and this benefit must have a certain cost.
It's a bit like Cure spells but on the opponent, so also a higher cost than Cure spells.

The spells must be used according to the circumstances, and even Disrupting Ray has its usefulness, and I use it very often, it should not be underestimated.

DarkAtom wrote:

I think the project will be way better than VCMI, because H3 already has the HD mod, however H2 is currently stuck in 640x480 (unless you want to go to H3SW with HD mod). I guess fheroes2 will become the VCMI of H2 and Project Ironfist will be something like ERA, if the projects continue going. Though I already love Ironfist more than ERA because there is already a new town almost implemented (WoG never did this in its 19 years of existence)

With the new fheroes2 project, you can already use all available resolutions of your graphic card.

Unknown_Hero wrote:

DarkAtom wrote:

Nice spells, but not sure why they are so expensive

Maybe I should make my spells a bit more expensive, because at the moment they are cheaper than Dispel, but I don't think there are many cases where somebody would use 7 mana for a Disenchant rather than a good old   , otherwise it will become a useless spell, like Disrupting Ray.

Yes, I set their costs higher because they don't remove negative spells, unlike Dispel Magic spells, and this benefit must have a certain cost.
It's a bit like Cure spells but on the opponent, so also a higher cost than Cure spells.

The spells must be used according to the circumstances, and even Disrupting Ray has its usefulness, and I use it very often, it should not be underestimated.

DarkAtom wrote:

I think the project will be way better than VCMI, because H3 already has the HD mod, however H2 is currently stuck in 640x480 (unless you want to go to H3SW with HD mod). I guess fheroes2 will become the VCMI of H2 and Project Ironfist will be something like ERA, if the projects continue going. Though I already love Ironfist more than ERA because there is already a new town almost implemented (WoG never did this in its 19 years of existence)

With the new fheroes2 project, you can already use all available resolutions of your graphic card.

Don't forget that Cure also has a +5HP/Spellpower, too. The 6 spell points also account for that So a fair cost would be 6, same as Cure. As for Disrupting Ray, the spell is just too circumstantial and currently it is the main source of mana waste for the AI How many times did it happen for the AI to cast Disrupting Ray on your tank in the first turn?

DarkAtom wrote:

Don't forget that Cure also has a +5HP/Spellpower, too. The 6 spell points also account for that So a fair cost would be 6, same as Cure.

The 5 Hp per Spell Power of the Cure spells are a little light for my taste, I plan to increase the value to 10 Hp per Spell Power.
But anyway, the player will often get more benefit from removing a negative spell than from getting a few HP, except in some cases for creatures with a lot of HP that risk to be decimated.
Maybe a cost of 6 spell points would be okay.

DarkAtom wrote:

As for Disrupting Ray, the spell is just too circumstantial and currently it is the main source of mana waste for the AI How many times did it happen for the AI to cast Disrupting Ray on your tank in the first turn?

Yes, the AI uses the Disrupting Ray spell a bit too much.
I think this problem can be solved with a new combat AI.

Disrupting Ray spell is cumulative. You can put the defense of a Titan to 0 after some turns.
But... I never use it.
Maybe if it was "halves the defense" it would be worth cast it?

GodRage wrote:

Disrupting Ray spell is cumulative. You can put the defense of a Titan to 0 after some turns.
But... I never use it.
Maybe if it was "halves the defense" it would be worth cast it?

It would take something like 6-7 turns to get a Titan to 0 defense (assuming decent defense on enemy hero). If your army is big enough to withstand 6 turns against Titans so powerful that they require their defense reduced, then you probably also have some better spells, like Resurrect True to keep your army up, or Armageddon to demolish the Titans. So yes, this spell is powerful in some situations, but there are almost always better alternatives.

Halving the defense is extremely overpowered and it would probably make it a level 4 spell costing 12 mana.

Generally speaking, all spells are more or less situational, which is why for me, all spells (almost ) are interesting.

The Disrupting Ray spell is very useful with a might oriented hero with low Spell Power, the fact that the spell's effect is added is really a plus.
It's a fairly easy 2nd level spell to get and doesn't require Wisdom to be cast.
For me, it is worth its cost of 7 spell points.

Yes, halving defense would be too powerful.

Unknown_Hero wrote:

Generally speaking, all spells are more or less situational, which is why for me, all spells (almost ) are interesting.

The Disrupting Ray spell is very useful with a might oriented hero with low Spell Power, the fact that the spell's effect is added is really a plus.
It's a fairly easy 2nd level spell to get and doesn't require Wisdom to be cast.
For me, it is worth its cost of 7 spell points.

Yes, halving defense would be too powerful.

A might hero with low Spell Power will probably also have low Knowledge and hence, not enough mana to cast Disrupting Ray enough for it to be effective.

I feel like the best way to test this spell's usefulness is to start a big map and every time you cast a spell write it down. When you finish, see which spells you used the most and if Disrupting Ray is anywhere in the top 20. I did this some time ago and it seems I overused Lightning Bolt, Resurrect True and Blind, but I never used Disrupting Ray, Shield or Paralyze, all of which are technically good spells . This is probably more about playstyle, though, but it is an experiment worth trying nevertheless.

I agree that some spells require a lot more attention (Hypnotize, for example, or Fireball, not enough damage), but a good spell is useful in many more situations than Disrupting Ray. And there is quite a long list of such good spells.

Anyway, I think we are going off-topic with the Phoenix. We should wait and see what the Ironfist Team has to say, I am sure the Rebirth ability would be a nice feature in H2, but most likely not in the form that I implemented it.

Well, apparently I missed a hot discussion while dealing with grad school things. Everything here is super cool!

Some of DarkAtom's changes are no-brainers that should be included (e.g.: saying no to Witch Huts; their current version generates too much "anti-fun").

H2 is not big on giving lots of creatures special abilities, unlike later entries, but the Phoenix ability fits thematically and is not any more complicated than the Genie's ability. It would be a real decision on whether to include it. Balance-wise, we're undecided on whether to mess with existing creatures. I am currently slightly in favor of adopting all changes in the balance patch that I created around 10 years ago with UndeadHalfOrc on the CH forums, which included HP buffs to the Phoenix and nerfs to the Titan / Dragon; however, this is as yet undecided.

In any case, I am quite happy to work to give everything DarkAtom has implemented the light of day, so that it can be at least featured in custom maps if not part of core Ironfist.

Quote :

Cursed artifacts are untradable (idea from H1). This has dual-purpose, it makes getting rid of them from the main hero more difficult and it gives the Alchemist Tower more attention.

A long time ago, I came up with the idea of giving a cursed artifact (particularly the Fizbin of Misfortune) to a scout hero and then suiciding them against an enemy in order to give negative morale to the enemy.

I then got to actually use this in one of my few online PvP games, against UndeadHalfOrc (post-match summary is somewhere on the CH forums). It was very effective. 'Twas one of my proudest moments.

Outside of that, I'm actually somewhat in favor of removing cursed artifacts from the game, except that we can't actually do that.

Thank you, @Darmani, for taking your time to read through my ideas!

Darmani wrote:

H2 is not big on giving lots of creatures special abilities, unlike later entries, but the Phoenix ability fits thematically and is not any more complicated than the Genie's ability. It would be a real decision on whether to include it. Balance-wise, we're undecided on whether to mess with existing creatures. I am currently slightly in favor of adopting all changes in the balance patch that I created around 10 years ago with UndeadHalfOrc on the CH forums, which included HP buffs to the Phoenix and nerfs to the Titan / Dragon; however, this is as yet undecided.

To be absolutely honest, H2 would be balanced if it wasn't for the level 6 units. Without them, who would defeat the Barbarian's power stack of Ogre Lords? The Sorceress' fast elves and druids? Yes, they can be defeated, but when you have a pack of titans your brain doesn't need to think at all.

Not touching the existing creatures is not a good idea. If Ironfist adds a new faction (Cyborg), how will its units fit in an already unbalanced game?

Nerfing level 6 units is also a bad idea, in my opinion. Not only it makes the creatures less awesome, and thus makes the player avoid the mod, but also nerfing the 300HP of titans and BD to at least not completely overpower the mere 65HP of crusaders seems like a difficult task, if breaking the game is not an option.

Probably one of the most OP buildings in the game is the Well...with it, Knights get 4 Crusaders and Warlocks get 3 Black Dragons, when it should be more like 4 vs 1.

Quote :

Outside of that, I'm actually somewhat in favor of removing cursed artifacts from the game, except that we can't actually do that.

I agree with you, but I don't know about half-cursed artifacts (like Broach of Shielding). Especially if something like the Bag gets added, cursed artifacts would create even more confusion.

Quote :

In any case, I am quite happy to work to give everything DarkAtom has implemented the light of day, so that it can be at least featured in custom maps if not part of core Ironfist.

Thank you, once again!    I feel like some features could be optional, though (but I hope we don't get 4 or 5 tabs of settings that aren't all compatible like in H3 WoG ).

EDIT: If anybody wants to play around with my changes and see which ones are good, they are here, but...you have to compile the game yourself.

Quote :

Nerfing level 6 units is also a bad idea, in my opinion. Not only it makes the creatures less awesome, and thus makes the player avoid the mod, but also nerfing the 300HP of titans and BD to at least not completely overpower the mere 65HP of crusaders seems like a difficult task, if breaking the game is not an option.

You can read all the changes here: https://www.celestialheavens.com/forum/7/8724 . Crusaders get an HP boost, Dragons get reduced growth. But Dragons still overpower Crusaders.

BTW, Crusaders and Phoenixes are actually my favorite level 6 creatures. Crusaders in particular do an insane amount of damage. The highest damage ever seen in HoMM II was a stack of Crusaders with Luck against the undead.

Balance isn't set yet, but Cyborg is meant to be a bit different from other factions. Their creatures are meant to be significantly more powerful than those of other factions, but also much more expensive and lower growth. We've discussed having creatures other than the Level 6 require special resources. And an idea that was just floated is that we keep the Well, but Cyborgs don't get a well.

We've also discussed having there being only one Cyborg hero. If you play Cyborg, you don't get another one.

Quote :

but I hope we don't get 4 or 5 tabs of settings that aren't all compatible like in H3 WoG Evil or Very Mad ).

Good point. Actually having a core game design and not just a giant pile of options is very much the Ironfist intention, in contrast to WoG.

I'll private message you about getting some stuff merged.