H3SW: General Graphics discussion

I will try, but I'm afraid that in the most important windows we cannot do much to blink them more

We will see.

It might be possible to override HD Mod data with our own. Feanor may know more.

Good news everyone!

Baratorch told me that it is possible to implement our new interfaces for H3SW + HD using an Era plugin. This will allow us to include our HD Mod graphics with our release and update it easily any time H3SW is updated.

For now, we need to make all HD Mod graphics to replace all native HD Mod assets and put it in _HD3_Data\Packs.
Baratorch will create an Era plugin for us when we will be ready.

I suppose that we will be able to update graphics later autonomously.

Wauw, HD mod compatibility Then you can play H2 (almost) on a freaking wide screen!!!

Yes. However, some HD Mod features are incompatible with Era/WoG. Baratorch is going to cut them off because they cause barely reproduceable bugs. It comes from the WoG nature.

For now, we should make a full graphics pack so I will be able to send it to him for experimenting.

An update of the Acolyte by Thorjac.





First of all, I really like your progress. You seem to be understanding what is Heroes 2 graphic style, and you will most probably be able to create decent H2-ish assets after a little practice.



Here are some notes.

First of all, it's the creature gamma. As you may notice, in Heroes 2 there is approximately 2 main colors and 2-4 decorative colors for each faction. An example of Barbarian:




Main colors: Green + Brown + Grey in some amount; Orange comes as relative to Yellow and Brown.
Decorative colors: Red (for eyes; relative to Orange and Yellow), Yellow; Turquoise comes as relative to Grey, not a very close relation but it seems to be fitting just fine.
The trick is that all these colors fit to each other quite nicely and provide enough variety so the lineup doesn't look copied.
The outline doesn't have to be black: it simply replicates the neighbouring color, but it is considerably darker.


In the case of the Dervish faction the colors also should be distributed in a peculiar way.



I must admit that simply composing a faction of neutrals will not make the cut. We can see a total mash-up in the gamma as well as creature concepts. But still, we can make very careful adjustments so no one will notice them but will start recognizing the faction as whole.
I suppose the Dervish colors to follow these rules:

Main colors: Yellow, Grey, Brown as relative to Yellow
Decorative colors: Blue (used for Genie and blades), ???
Unique Green color for un-upgraded Medusa still can exist as an exception (like in the Wizard's lineup where we have the blue Giant and black Titan). The upgraded Medusa (Medusa Queen) should be brownish to satisfy the main gamma.

However, the Red color (a relative to Yellow and Orange) does not look very good for the Anubite in the current lineup because we have Yellow and Brown instead. Most probably, the Anubite's dress color will be changed. The red color comes from Anubite's prototype in Might and Magic VI. The Scorpion's yellow color also doesn't satisfy because the Scorpion is placed near the Nomad who is already Yellow. So that the Scorpion main color is also likely to be changed to something brownish or grey. We need more variety in this case.


In the case of the current Acolyte, we have got a real lot of colors which currently don't complement to the chosen faction main gamma.

- The Purple color should be removed. It doesn't go well with the rest of the lineup colors, because it fits much more for the Necromancer (as a relative to Blue and Red).

- The White color is questionable, because there are not any creatures which actually fit this color. First I thought to use White as a dress for un-upgraded Anubite, but then I came up with an idea of H2-styled upgrade system for creatures. I think that the dress should be more grey-ish or brownish. The current beige color is likely to be changed to a more radical brown. Still, we need to make sure that the first three levels will look good near each other: Rogue, Acolyte, Nomad. The Rogue's weapon color can be changed to Blue like the Nomad has, so the Acolyte is likely to become something in between.

- The beard color should stay as is, and the skin should be a darker brown.

- The destiny of the red belt is unknown. Probably, it can be Blue instead of Red, to satisfy the decorative color.



Second, we must keep in mind the creature proportions.

Your current version is more like the standard human proportions (7 heads for the full-height).
Heroes 2 proportions are a bit different:


Moreover, the current Acolyte is too narrow to fit the other creatures:


so that it will be necessary to consider widening it a little. Still it's a journeyman spellcaster with sandals and all that, but it must look strong enough for level 2.


Third, we don't animate creatures for v0.8 beta.

We simply don't have time for that, but if you will have a desire to do so, it will be appreciated. Animating creatures with properly done color transitions may take a real lot of time, because each frame must be more or less good-looking if taken separately from the frame pack.


Fourth, some conceptual improvements could also be good.

A more discernible turban or hat, a more confident arm which grips the staff, and maybe even a staff position adjustment would come in handy very much.


That's all for now, I hope it will be helpful and not very much annoying to read.

Thanks a lot for the great reply! I will look into making the changes.

Edit: Is there a full Heroes 2 color palette somewhere? Right now I'm just using other Heroes 2 creatures for reference, but it would be easier to just import a sorted 256 color palette.

It's in Uhm's post I was directing you to in the H3SW Recruitment thread.

H2 PALETTE (MODIFIED FOR H3SW)

Thanks, must have missed it!

Satyr — [possible] new tier 4 Sorceress unit

It looks awesome. After some fixes it should definitely be included in the Sorceress lineup. One more advantage of the Satyr (not telling about the fact that the Owlbear is not a fairy-tale creature and it was ripped from Dungeons&Dragons) is that it belongs to the classical Greek mythology, can fit to the brownish gamma very well, and its dwelling concept is already clear (see Heroes 4 wine keg house).

It looks good. It is the best alternative for the owlbear that I have seen yet, but first I thought it fell under the category of part man part animal creatures which is mostly found it the Warlock castle. I later discovered that it doesn't seem to be half man half buck/horse, but more a man with features from those creatures. I we talk fauns on the other hand it appears they are half man half goat, but that is not quite the same as a satyr. Anyway, it is a much better option than the owlbear and I wonder how we didn't come up with it before?

With Heroes 3 basis, we will necessarily have to enrich Heroes 2 concept. Warlock had the Greek creatures, yes, but the Dragon isn't, as well as the Cyclops is not placed in the Warlock castle.

The Owlbear is also a hybrid, and in fact it doesn't have the same kind feel as the Satyr, so it will be the lesser evil. Not even telling that it's not a mythological creature.

True. Also the titan and medusa breaks the rule that Greek creature must be in the warlock castle, so it not really a problem. Satyrs are said to be living in the forest, so it fits quite well with the sorceress.

Dr Slash wrote:

Satyr — [possible] new tier 4 Sorceress unit

The head is 100% accurate H2 style!! Incredible!
But the body seems not ebough H2ish. :s
For a Tier 4, we must give him some clothes (half human, half clothes? xD) or weapon (he attack with feet and fists? lol)... :p

When I was drawing the satyr, I imagined him using his horns for attacks.

He can use legs for attacks like in h4. And no, he doesn't need clothes.

I prefer the Owlbear cause of the 2 hexes and deffensive role, since Sorceress is weak at deffense so the Owlbear was a great point before and kept the Sorceress faction in harmony. The magical forest dwelling matches to that mythological creature unlike Satyr. I guess instead of regeneration and mana draining the Satyr will have the ability to cast Myrth just like in Hota. Strange concept I have to say. Not to mention the current Satyr not even look like H2-ish while the Owlbear (I don't know the original name which game the Owlbear is coming from :scratch:) is much H2-ish looking creature without edits as I saw it in it's original game appear as an enemy similarly to Golden Axe series. Also the sounds of the Owlbear in-game were also a 100% match and fits the Sorceress faction the best. I don't know why you guys change it once it was perfect.

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since Sorceress is weak at defense

You forget that we will have our own statistics for creatures.

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The magical forest dwelling matches to that mythological creature unlike Satyr.

Not at all. The "Magic forest" is a horribly frankensteined tree. We will design a new dwelling for the Satyr because the current one is awful.

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Strange concept I have to say.

Satyr is mythological, well-known, fairy-tale, good-tempered, forest-dwelling creature.

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Not to mention the current Satyr not even look like H2-ish while the Owlbear (I don't know the original name which game the Owlbear is coming from scratch) is much H2-ish looking creature without edits

No, the Owlbear doesn't look more H2-ish than the Satyr draft. It is a creature from another game (Dungeons&Dragons) with its own graphic style. Satyr will be fixed and will be looking just fine.

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Also the sounds of the Owlbear in-game were also a 100% match and fits the Sorceress faction the best.

We cannot have sounds from other games. It's called plagiarism.

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I don't know why you guys change it once it was perfect.

Simply because it's far from perfect due to at least 5 reasons mentioned below. And yes, only one reason is enough: it's a creature from another game.

- not a fairy-tale concept, it comes from modern fantasy (D&D)
- rip from another game
- not existed before in Heroes series
- too smooth graphic style, too smooth animation
- hard to design a dwelling for
- not a fairy-tale name.

Orzie wrote:

You forget that we will have our own statistics for creatures.

Satyr is a support type of creature compare to Owlbear's deffensive preferences, but I understand you have newer and newer concepts about filling up the faction with the last creature matches to Sorceress. Owlbear was good, luckily I still have the previous beta with the Owlbear. I just had to mention Owlbear was a good idea, not because of where it was coming from, because of 2 hexes and deffensive/durable role unlike other creatures in the Sorceress faction. Unicorns die first if sent in the battlefield cause it's more likely an offensive creature than deffensive and Dwarves too because magicians can risk spell points casting on Dwarves, but as I mentioned Owlbear is somewhat different.

Orzie wrote:

The "Magic forest" is a horribly frankensteined tree. We will design a new dwelling for the Satyr because the current one is awful.

There was nothing halloweeny about the forest, I actually liked it. It's not like Slenderman gonna chase you there or anything. What will the Satyr's dwelling be instead of the forest? I wonder.

Orzie wrote:

Satyr is mythological, well-known, fairy-tale, good-tempered, forest-dwelling creature.

Satyrs are well known from Greek mythology, I was got used to fantasies before maybe this is why I got used to the Owlbear and it's preferences in-game so Satyr will be unusual for me. Forest-dwelling creature? So that means we will have a new style of forest with a special hut?

Orzie wrote:

No, the Owlbear doesn't look more H2-ish than the Satyr draft. It is a creature from another game (Dungeons&Dragons) with its own graphic style. Satyr will be fixed and will be looking just fine.

Then you should take the time for making it, So you say that, the Owlbear was copy/paste concept? In my opinion it was a guest character what just made the game more tasty, but as you said the Satyr is a fairy-tale creature which is true about the other creatures found in Sorceress faction then I'll be waiting for the new looking Satyr cause you made me excited right now.

Orzie wrote:

We cannot have sounds from other games. It's called plagiarism.

Then what other choice we have? Owlbear is not a copyright protected game content, so you can use it like you used before and anytime you want to.


The reasons you mentioned before why Owlbear isn't matching into the game I'm completely ok with that. All I will do in the future is to keep all the downloadable versions of H3SW, then I will be able to play with both Owlbear and the Satyr specialized Sorceress towns.

I loved the Broccoli joke on DF2 page.

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There was nothing halloweeny about the forest, I actually liked it.

It looked totally out of place.

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Forest-dwelling creature? So that means we will have a new style of forest with a special hut?

Yes, it's gonna be a fancy cottage with a giant wine keg, like some kind of variation of what was in Heroes 4.

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Owlbear is not a copyright protected game content

It actually is.

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There was nothing halloweeny about the forest

"Frankensteined" graphics is a common term for modders when you take existing assets and combine them to obtain "new" ones, like we had for WoG 3.58f commanders. It's not going to happen in H3SW, we have higher standards for graphics and we actually can make good graphics.

Orzie wrote:

Yes, it's gonna be a fancy cottage with a giant wine keg, like some kind of variation of what was in Heroes 4.

Wow, that sounds cute! Unfortunately I have never played with Heroes 4. I stucked to play with the old Heroes 2 and 3, neither I know any game of the "Might and Magic" games or it's history. Shame, but true.

Orzie wrote:

Actually it is.

The creator of D&D is still alive and have the rights or it has something similar reason?

Orzie wrote:

we have higher standards for graphics and we actually can make good graphics.

I'm glad that your team are about to make this game mode done as original as possible not taking out any existing creatures or objects from other non-Homm sources and etc.

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The creator of D&D is still alive and have the rights or it has something similar reason?

It's not about the creator or whatever, it's about the franchise.

The new difficulty icons for the singleplayer menu. Not perfect, but this will work for v0.8. I guess not many people will notice the flaws, but still I'd like to finish them later.



Old variants were like this (blurry, disproportioned, broken background):



The design of a "selected" icon is still under discussion. I guess, we should make a filtered version rather than classic red selection window. The latter doesn't fit good for Heroes 3 icon proportions and general Heroes 3 button-click sound.

So now the whole interface became exchanged Some elements will need polishment for further releases (my eye-slaughter kingdom overview ;P) but in general we are done with it :afro: