H3SW: Upgrade system

Starting from v0.8 the upgrade system for H3SW is going to follow standard Heroes 2 principles with some creatures being able to upgrade once, some - never, and a few - upgraded twice.

This is more a forced decision than a confident change. The main reasons for it are:

Some Heroes 2 concepts are not intended to have a graphical degree of freedom for upgrading. Especially these are animals and monsters: simple recolor would be not interesting and looking cheap while there are barely abilities to vary the concept (Hydra's heads, Wolf fur, Boar's skin, etc.).

Making and packing upgrades is a very hard work, often unrewarding.

We do not have time to fix all upgrades for v0.8 and I am really tired of explaining to people that these are placeholders. People easily get a wrong opinion about the project, its quality and approach.

Diversified upgrade system looks interesting and more dynamic than the one of Heroes 3. It is also more classic so H2 lovers will anyway be interested.

We can add more upgrades later because some creature concepts may have new upgrades. For example, upgraded Peasant with a morning star (Conscript) or upgraded Rogue (Marauder or Bandit) can look well and H2-ish and I already have design ideas for them. But later.

New castles and new creatures of old castles can follow this rule too: Knight units are likely to have upgrades while Barbarian's rather not. Dervish lineup has currently 3 upgradeable creatures in plans including Medusa who possesses an ability to shoot after upgrading to Medusa Queen. The "Frog of Enroth" i.e. the Toad can also become Venomous Toad and possess the shooting ability with low amount of charges.

I must also note that the Ghoul, the Owlbear, the Troglodyte, the Beholders, the Kobold, the Hippogryph, the Gnoms, the Shamans, the Ettins are placeholders and will be replaced by other concepts in future. Some of them are clearly a recolor of already existing creatures, and some are taken from other games without permission.

The Beholder will be remade from scratch regarding to MMVI concept and moved to Warlock's 4th level. Agar will receive a specialty with them.

I really like upgraded placeholders. I don't think they're worse than original - all three dragons are simply recoloured. People seem to expect more content, rather than better content - that's why people don't await H2HD, but H2 with thousand of new creatures ;P Of course we shouldn't mindlessly satisfy their caprices, but disabling new monsters rather won't meet a warm reception. I think we should leave everything as is, gradually adding better content, concentrating on balancing creature's strength for now.

When I was editing the H2 game (hexadecimal editor) an idea came in my mind... I planed to transform some of the "upgrades" into a top creature stats. Of course prices would be also top creature style.
For exemple... Knight castle's archer up would have become as much dangerous as Titans. (but also, the upg.building would have be kind of more expensive than Titans building.).

Just for telling that the upgrade system doesn't have to be obviously like the Heroes of M&M games have always shown.

Uhm wrote:

I really like upgraded placeholders. I don't think they're worse than original - all three dragons are simply recoloured. People seem to expect more content, rather than better content - that's why people don't await H2HD, but H2 with thousand of new creatures ;P Of course we shouldn't mindlessly satisfy their caprices, but disabling new monsters rather won't meet a warm reception. I think we shouldn leave everything as is, gradually adding better content, concentrating on balancing creature's strength for now.

From what I've been able to get from people's comments on our various info sources, it's absolutely vice versa. People easily discern "fake graphics" and spread negative word about the mod everywhere thinking that these graphics are final. The times of WoG where they had "new" objects made from existing ones are gone. With HotA dominating the scene, everyone now wants graphical purity and high quality not characteristic to WoG. We are a proof that not all WoG-based projects are ugly, so I will strongly insist on putting only genuinely H2-ish assets to v0.8. We can add new content later on when we will have time.

Balance issues don't matter for the beta. We don't have army of online testers like HotA. Without it, our balance statistics is just a pure guess. Heroes 2 was popular not because of its balance, but because of its graphical neatness. We need v0.8 to be maximum presentative - we need artists desperately. We won't make it alone.

And yeah, dragon recolors and Nomad recolors are incomparable in quality. Heroes 2 had recolors, yes, but right now we are gonna raise their presence to 95% on the battlefield. It ruins all aesthetics. We need more upgrades like Zombie Mutant, if we ever are to upgrade more than a classic H2 basis.

I understand your problems with the current upgrades, but I also agree with Uhm that I don't find the upgrades that bad for placeholders. The mod is still in beta though and I would rather improve on the upgrades along the way. I know I said before that the idea with creatures having no upgrades was okay, but I am not sure I still think so. We must decide if we are working towards a game with some creatures having no upgrade, some having 1 upgrade and some having 2 upgrades (like Orzie suggested) or if we are aiming towards all H3 styled upgrades (1 for each creature, expect Dragons).

Don't forget about Gold Golems. They might be available to buy in Golem Factory and might have a chance to be obtained from a hero specialty.

Orzie wrote:

[...] we need artists desperately. We won't make it alone. [...]

in my opinion, It would be good to time to time open a topic saying "we need a design for this or that."
it would be a good way for people to try to design something needed in the game, without requesting first to join the team.
(it would at least fit my case... too much busy to join seriously your team, but making graphics time to time, I'm pretty sure I will try! ^^)

And yeah, I would prefer some creatures to not have upgrades. This is more classic and strategy-wise in my opinion.

The Gold Golem upgrade is just fine. It would be a cool feature and I agree that it is more H2 wise to keep some units without upgrades, but I still am not sure what I think myself. It is nice having all upgrades as in H3. It would mean more creatures which I am sure most people would enjoy (at least if the quality is good). It would make factions like Warlock and Barbarian have a varied army when they can have the rest half of their line-up upgraded. On the other hand it would be more H2 styled to leave some units without upgrade and I might be hard to create quality upgrades for every creature (though maybe it would be easier to make a down grade and keeping the H2 creatures as the upgraded one as with Griffins. I saw a decent version of the Hydra with 3 head somewhere on the DF2 forum). It would also be a nice feature and offer some H2 mechanic to a otherwise H3 game play styled mod.

Where are you, if anywhere, with the extra Knight unit? The placeholder is the crossbowman, right? Just curious.

Currently on draft stage.

There were many debates about the Crossbowman and its inclusion in the Knight lineup, but frankly, having the Crossbowman is the least evil. Counting that Knight faction is heavily based on Medieval England/Germany, the crossbow troops fit the lineup like no one else (see Lords of the Realm, for example).

There are some problems expected, since Knight is the only one faction not having the flyer creature (the Barbarian will have the Harpy). We will try to balance this with the use of Ballistics, perhaps also other bonuses for the Knight in siege.

Is a monk-type unit off the table? If I'm not mistaken, wasn't that the original placeholder unit for that spot? Or why not a valkyrie? It could be a flying female unit with armor and everything. In my mind that doesn't break away from the style, unless anything mythical is out of the question.

Valkyrie is a Norse mythology character. We have Medieval England/Germany concept.

Monk is very unlikely (and it doesn't solve the flyer problem anyway) because we already have Crusaders in the Cathedral. Having Monks as another religion-related unit is not going to make a good impression, also counting that Knight is a pure Might faction in Heroes 2, with no Clerics around.

Also, we already have Druid and Mage in robes, with Druid basically a prototype of Heroes 3 monk. Heroes 2 concepts don't replicate each other - with those limitations the probability of appearance of the Monk in H3SW is about 5%.

Hm, then perhaps it is wise to simply trust you. Your reasoning is very consistent and sound so I trust you'll make right call.

I assure you, Orzie knows a lot about the creatures in the H2 line-ups. He even made a whole thread on the DF2 forum explaining what creatures can be used and fit the H2 style. The monk (it was actually called bishop IIRC) was never a good idea in my opinion. The religious theme of the H2 knight is very small and should stay so. It was a bit more present in H3, but it also featured griffins which would never fit in the H2 setting of the knight. Of all other creatures I agree with Orzie that the crossbowman is the best solution. It keeps the knight strategy intact while bringing some extra fire power that can support the ground units.

I'd prefer H2 system (and, maybe, adding upgrades/degrades from version to version).
It's, ehm, more H2-ish, and also allow us more flexibility for fraction designing.
..and, of course, because it's already done.

Also, we can add hidden upgrades: e.g. peasant cannot be upgraded to Conscript at town, but Conscripts can be found at map and achieved through Hill Forts (or analogues)

I would be really, really glad to have strictly H2 artifacts (with our own effects though) and creatures for v0.8, except the Medusa Queen upgrade and some improvements over Battle Garb of Anduran. We desperately need a presentative version of the project where we can make a screenshot and no one will say it's cheap. We have made a real decent progress with the interface and other graphics, and there were a lot of negative comments about the new upgrades (except the Witch ones because they were made by Kivo). Heroes 2 upgrade system is more progressive than Heroes 3 one, and H2 creatures were never designed to satisfy upgradeability on the first place.

We are also unable to provide creature upgrades for the Dervish right now. It is only a few months left before the closed beta test. We have a nice ability to check people's impressions of the H2 system (because it's unusual for H3 gameplay) so I really would like to make v0.8 more qualified rather than having lots of raw unfinished content.

I am still not against New upgrades for creatures, maybe some, maybe even all, but the graphics required is a too hard work for our current team. We need more skilled recruits, and a presentative version will allow us to get them, trust me.

To be honest I fully support the H2 upgrade system, it was a good choice in my opinion. Upgrading all units or not was never that important.

Indeed what was great in this game for me, was first of all the audiovisual presentation, crisp, beautiful, detailed and marvelous in every single aspect. And of course the gameplay. Not the balance itself really, cause indeed the balance always had problems when comparing classes/units. Every pixel was meaningful though. It won over you right off the bat. So relaxing, great use of colors and sound. So I love the fact that you are trying to be so attentive regarding details and presentation since it is indeed more important than some may think.

One thought about the Crossbowmen if I may share. They somehow feel like a more powerful version of the archers/rangers. Almost like an identical buffed unit which does not really make them unique enough for a heroes 2/3 Unit. Are you thinking perhaps of adding an ability or something? And since I saw the possibility of a Flyer mentioned in this thread, what about Angels? I mean since Crusaders were never powerful enough for a latelevel Unit, why not nerf them a bit, and buff an Angel instead for that place? I mean well, it's a thought for the future that's all. And maybe it's a thought that could give the knight the push he always needed for becoming as good a class as the others. (Since the defense per level bonus from heroes 2 mechanics, and the fact that the last level unit was so weak overall, always put the knight in a disadvantage along with the Archer's low HP) Curious to read your thoughts on that.

PS: I can feel your pain/worries, it's always way too hard to find artists for animations and artwork.

The Crossbowmen will receive some improvements so they will finally look in place.

The Angels, however, are conceptually wrong simply because H2 is not a religious game. It's a fantasy game at its best, and Knight is a faction strongly based on Medieval Germany/Anglosaxon setting. We actually have a draft of an Angel based on its predecessor in Might&Magic 7, stylized under something more like Ancient Greece, but it's still not the same concept.

The Monks which were (of course) already suggested for a million of times, are in fact duplicated with the concept of Druids, and, lesser - the Magi. This niche is filled and cannot be used anymore, for all creatures in Heroes 2 are unique. We can allow ourselves to widen the conceptual base of the game a little (because not so many fairy-tale and popular mythology concepts are available), but the preference is given to the concepts of Might&Magic games simply because they are relative to HoMM in terms of graphics, plot and developer, New World Computing.

Was wondering. Is there actually any single post in this forum where we can see the latest versions of all castle lineups (all units) for Heroes 2 the succession Wars mod? I thought I had seen one, but no matter how much I search I can't seem to find it. :/

Quote :

Is there actually any single post in this forum where we can see the latest versions of all castle lineups (all units)

We have been preparing it for already 3 days. I hope Sir Albe will come with it soon.

Quote :

Heroes 2 the succession Wars mod

Heroes of Might and Magic 3: The Succession Wars. This is the official title.
By putting "Heroes 2" you misorient other users. This is a modification based on Heroes 3

1. Considering upgrades, I know that we base our mod on heroes 2 graphic style etc, but would it be good in some cases to change some classic upgrades? I mean for example upgraded golem, simple recolor. It felt dull, and if someone will be playing our mod and will upgrade it, see only slightly changed design it would be quite cool in my opinion. And by slightly i mean only couple of pixels. It could be useful also if we consider to add golden golem to the lineup later which shouldn't have been just recolored imo.

2. How about the idea to leave one or two units in each faction non-upgradeable? It could vary a little bit with for example creature level, but it would fit both homm2 and homm3 style imo.

3. Knight could have flying creature like last level angel (paladin is meh at this place) or not a monk but a "scholar" with some kind of teleportation.

Spoiler:

1. I would say clear no. There is nothing wrong with the H2 upgrades being simple recolors at times. That is how they used to look and is part of their charm imo. and I don't think that should be changed. However, we used to have a "gold" golem in the previous version of the mod which might return someday

2. I guess that is part of the plan. Right now for v0.8 beta we have almost no "new" upgrades to classic H2 creatures and I guess I like the idea of only some classic H2 units having an upgrade.

3. I would say no again. First, I don't think knight should even have a flying creature. I would like the knight to be the only one without one, but then relay on the ballistics skill and melee force supported by the two ranged units to win. That is a very unique and interesting class in my opinion. Secondly, a "scholar" doesn't really fit the atmosphere of H2. You can check out Orzie's post on the matter here.

Quote :

1. Considering upgrades, I know that we base our mod on heroes 2 graphic style etc, but would it be good in some cases to change some classic upgrades? I mean for example upgraded golem, simple recolor. It felt dull, and if someone will be playing our mod and will upgrade it, see only slightly changed design it would be quite cool in my opinion. And by slightly i mean only couple of pixels. It could be useful also if we consider to add golden golem to the lineup later which shouldn't have been just recolored imo.

Changing the native H2 assets is very unlikely for a number of reasons. First is the simplicity of that principle: we risk to dive in an ocean of discussions where the ultimately right option doesn't exist and many things depend on preferences and tastes. Secretly, I only fix some portraits and townscreen assets which are 100% wrong and made with mistakes (especially the townscreens). I just don't point out these changes.
I also must confess that I made Gwenneth a little more beautiful than she was in the original. That asymmetric eyebrows and eyes just made me sick. However, since we change (resize) portraits anyway, they all are somewhat changed.


Second, Heroes 2 upgrades are all recolors except Knight lineup. In fact, from other factions only the Zombie Mutant is a complex-looking upgrade. Probably, the concept of upgrades was developed on the latter stages of H2 development.

Ragoon has a point however: we already add some upgrades of our creatures with additional traits while we could simply recolor them.

Finally, I must also notice that additional work on native H2 assets would slow down the development even more. We have been struggling with v0.8 beta for almost 4 years (the previous open beta was released in Jan, 2013).

Quote :

2. How about the idea to leave one or two units in each faction non-upgradeable? It could vary a little bit with for example creature level, but it would fit both homm2 and homm3 style imo.

Heroes 2 upgrade system > Heroes 3 upgrade system. I thought that I have already made sure that we will have partial upgradeability for our creatures.
Moreover, in terms of design, Heroes 2 has some rules (see Canonical Factions Lineups thread). Animals and low-consciousness creatures mostly don't have upgrades. In contrary, Knight which is composed of humans wearing armor/weaponry is maximally available to be upgraded. In general, any sign of technology except openly marginal concepts (Rogue, Nomad) is an indicator of possible upgradeability, but not much more. Some H2 concepts are not even intended to be upgraded, like the Hydra. Recolor is boring, adding heads is... practically impossible without the loss of quality.

Quote :

3. Knight could have flying creature like last level angel (paladin is meh at this place) or not a monk but a "scholar" with some kind of teleportation.

That was discussed a lot of times, and generally, any arguments for any kind of spellcaster are barely valid since Knight is a some kind of feudal Anglo-Saxon warrior with peasants and nobles. See Lords of the Realm II. It's purely medieval. A some kind of monk in a robe with a hammer would be secondary to the Druid and Mage. The Dervish's Mystic is already balancing at that sharp edge, and it is a concept of MMVI (Cultist of Baa).

An angel in Heroes 2 would not also fit because there is no place for white color in the Knight lineup (and it's not a medieval knight concept). Yet, I admit that Angels would better solve the gameplay problems of the Knight. For now I think it's better to try to adjust the siege potential of Knight heroes via special bonuses to the Catapult and Ballistics skill, and probably, even some bonuses for the Crossbowman.

Principles of Heroes II upgrading system and relation to H3SW

While I was travelling in Asia earlier last year, I spent some time thinking about what patterns are behind whether a creature can be upgraded in Heroes II. My thoughts are very close to what Orzie proposed about technology and animal/low conscious creatures some years ago (see post above), so I didn’t make all this up on my own. I believe it can be covered by these simple rules:

1. No first level units can be upgraded
2. Only units which uses weapons, armor or use magic though their hands can be trained/upgraded
3. A few units can undergo “transformation/aging” upgrades

Let me explain these by going through the factions (neutrals naturally cannot be upgraded as they have no in-town dwelling).

Knight: All units carry some weapon, be it bows, swords or lances. Thus, naturally all knight units can be trained to achieved better expertise in using these weapons. This is also reflected in the names of the upgrades, “Veteran Pikeman” and “Master Swordsman” for instance.

Sorceress: Humanoid creatures such as dwarfs, elves and druids are all capable of being trained to become better at using their combat skills. Druids use their hands to form fireballs which they can improve by training. Unicorns and Phoenixes are wild creatures and cannot be trained as they attack without the use of weaponry.

Wizard: Golems can be crafted using steel instead of iron which is an upgrade for them as it is a more durable material. It can be considered a transformation or as getting better armor. Mages are, like druids, able to practice their magic skills to become better. Giants can improve their armor (as seen by the change from blue to black). Maybe the Titan’s armor is even made of titanium

Necromancer: I would classify most of these as transformation upgrades as only the Lich seems to receive better armor and (maybe) has been taught better at his “magic” bomb making like the Druid and Mage. Both Zombies, Mummies and Vampires are transformed into more decayed versions (Zombie) or being animated from a better body (Royal Mummy and maybe Vampire Lord).

Warlock: Has many beasts and apparently only Minotaurs are civil enough to use weapons. The Dragon upgrades would be classified as a transformation. Maybe each one is an elder version of the previous with Black Dragons being the most respected, mature and thus strongest dragons.

Barbarian: Many creatures a humanoid such as goblins, orcs, ogres, trolls and the cyclopses. But only the cyclops is too savage to wield a weapon that I can be trained in. It wouldn’t make sense to say it can be trained to use its laser eye better, but for trolls to shoot better (and receive a tiny bit of armor in form of a tiara) and the ogre to use its get its axe enhanced make more sense.

Personally, I believe there is no upgrades for 1st level unit because they are simply too weak, especially on the hit points which mean the vanish pretty quickly from even the mid game and thus don’t need an upgraded form. Also, since H2 only has five creature slots in the Hero’s army, 1st level units could be meant unintended to carry along in the later game (even though they can be useful sometimes).

Now, if these principles were applied to the new creatures added in H3SW, which one should then have an upgrade?
• Crossbowman: Yes (carries a weapon and can get better armor)
• Satyr: No (Doesn’t use weapons or magic, too wild to be trained)
• Gnome: Yes (uses magic through his hands, same case with druids, mages and liches)
• Death Knight: Yes (uses weapon and carries armor)
• Beholder: No (cannot learn to use its magic eye better, same case with cyclops)
• Harpy: No/Maybe (maybe could learn to use weapons (as in H3), but its basic version doesn’t have any)
• Tribal: No (carries weapon, but is a level 1 unit)
• Wasp: No (beast, not trainable)
• Lizardman: Yes (carries weapon and armor)
• Toad: No (beast, not trainable)
• Mantis: No (beast, not trainable)
• Treant: No (beast, not trainable)
• Wyvern: No (beast, not trainable)
• Rogue: No (carries arms, but is a level 1 unit)
• Acolyte: Yes (uses staff to do magic, same case with mage)
• Nomad: Yes (carries weapons and armor)
• Medusa: No/Maybe (Doesn’t carry weapons, but maybe could, same case as Harpy)
• Manticore: No (beast, not trainable)
• Anubite: Maybe (is actually a construct which carries weapons, but hard to say if it can be enhanced as the golems or use it weapon better even though it is non-living)
• Genie: Yes (Uses magic through its hands)

Now, does that mean I think the new units in H3SW should follow the points above? No.

I think we have some cases where it would be better going against the H2 principles. For instance, I think it is really cool to have the Rogue upgrade (Bandit) for the Dervish faction as it makes rogues fit the faction better (Arabian look). Also, the Medusa Queen upgraded creates a very interesting unit, and you could argue that instead of being upgraded to use her weapon better she just learns how to use a weapon in the first place. This could be said for that Harpy as well, if we would want an upgrade for her sometime in the future. I clearly changed my opinion on this (as I supported as many upgrades as we could get, see above) today I believe “Less is more” and would much rather have a few well designed (from both visual and gameplay aspects) than ten uninteresting upgrades.

To me the gameplay possibilities of upgrades are just as important as if they fit the principles. If the gameplay options the upgrade provides are interesting enough, then the principle isn’t too important, but if both are archived, then the upgrade is completely justified from my point of view.