H3SW General Discussion

Interesting how in there written no upgrade for Rogue, but in current version he actually can be upgraded into Bandit.

DanilaRud015 wrote:

Interesting how in there written no upgrade for Rogue, but in current version he actually can be upgraded into Bandit.

Yes, that is one of the exceptions I also mentioned. It made sense as we wanted the Rogue to fit it better with the Arabian theme (and also Ragoon's concept with the long knife and the scarf around his face was amazing!)

Generally speaking, adding upgrades for the sake of upgrades is not the best solution. Even the Rogue upgrade feels a little bit weird when the game is played on a Heroes 2 map - perhaps it's just the fixed memory though.

Future upgrades (and balance changes thereof) should be created for the sake of the gameplay, and not in spite of it. It all depends on what role should the upgrade have at the proper stage of the game.

Planewalker wrote:

In keeping with the rough Heroes 2 design philosophy of providing upgrades for humanoid (or humanoid-shaped) creatures, are there upgrade plans for the Acolytes, Nomads, Anubites, and Death Knights?

As of now, there is no plans for such upgrades. The closest creature which might have it is the Toad (Witch's lineup) because the Witch lacks shooters and I once thought about spitting Toads so the creature changes the role. It's not set in stone though; the Witch gameplay in future should be predominantly oriented on its innate creature cursing abilities.

The Dervish gameplay, on the other hand, is not currently crystallized. It might be right to suggest some kind of a fast expansion gameplay, where Dervish is supposed to push forward like the Barbarian. In that case, upgrades are often omitted because there is no time or money for them. The creatures are more balanced than those of the Sorc or Warlock, and suitable for a quick push against a wide selection of neutral armies.
On the other hand, the concept and lore of the faction might suggest that the Dervish has the money.

I think the Witch lineup works with only one ranged unit, due to their unusual number of flyers with varied roles. Wasps are good strikers, toads are tanks, mantises are shock units, and wyverns are all-around strong.

There is a huge possibility of Mantises being replaced by a new unit (Werewolves) in future. Will have to think about the possible combat role for the creature.

I found a "secret theme" im games files. Is it gonna be inferno music?

Orzie wrote:

There is a huge possibility of Mantises being replaced by a new unit (Werewolves) in future. Will have to think about the possible combat role for the creature.

Werewolves are cool, but for me, that would be somewhat sad. I love the mantises. They are a fun unit to mass, and they look amazing.

While the Manti are to discover if they help the gameplay, they are a big problem in terms of faction design. The Witch lineup is currently overcrowded with mono-colored "big animals" instead of more dynamic "mythology meets pop culture" concept which is strong in Heroes 1/2. It's not that the Manti should disappear from the game completely (even when Werewolves will appear, one of the creatures will go to Neutrals), but we'll have to decide what's better for the game, all things considered. It's never easy, like it is with every new creature or alternative design, the game is already exploding from new concepts which don't fit to the original vision of H2 developers.

The initial design decision of the Manti was done because there were too less reasons to add Werewolves (we already had Wolves and Anubites to fill the wolf niche). However, since the new campaigns will be based on the good portion of Might and Magic VI plot and the Witch is supposed to take a certain firm role in it, there is an increased need for the wolf guys and the number of reasons to do that also increased.

Makes sense to me - you guys are doing a great job. I'll still be happy with such a well-designed project.

Quick question that I didn't feel was worthy of it's own thread. Where is your castle music from? I thought they were just the original Heroes 2 castle tracks however I'm currently playing around with original Heroes 2 Gold and I'm getting completely different opera tracks to yours in my castles.. yet yours are familiar to me still.. so I'm all confused now lol. Can someone put me out of my misery?  

Heroes 2 had different versions of castle (and main menu theme) soundtracks. If you look at the vanilla The Succession Wars, you will get different opera themes. Heroes 2 Gold utilizes newer Heroes 2: The Price of Loyalty themes.

Heroes 2 Millenium edition features another (third one) theme for the Sorceress, which is used for our Dervish because it felt more fitting there.

Orzie wrote:

Heroes 2 had different versions of castle (and main menu theme) soundtracks. If you look at the vanilla The Succession Wars, you will get different opera themes. Heroes 2 Gold utilizes newer Heroes 2: The Price of Loyalty themes.

Heroes 2 Millenium edition features another (third one) theme for the Sorceress, which is used for our Dervish because it felt more fitting there.

Ahh that's why I recognised them! Back in the 90s I played the campaigns in the original Heroes 2 release, whereas in the decades since I've owned the Gold Edition based on Price of Loyalty and either forgotten or not noticed the change. Thank you for explaining that one. Now it makes sense!

On the Witch castle screen. Is there any plan to make the screen lighter or easier to view? It's extremely difficult to see the icons on the castle screen for the Witch castle and I'm not sure if it's my bad eyesight or it it's actually hard to see.

The Witch town screen is outdated and it is our goal to make a new on at some point. Preliminary work on it has begun, but it is a rather big task, so don’t expect to see it soon.

Orzie wrote:

While the Manti are to discover if they help the gameplay, they are a big problem in terms of faction design. The Witch lineup is currently overcrowded with mono-colored "big animals" instead of more dynamic "mythology meets pop culture" concept which is strong in Heroes 1/2.

The mantis is too cool to go. Maybe replace the wasps with jaguar men, or werejaguars? That still leaves the Witch with a whopping 3 flyers, fits in well with the concept of different humanoid races living as allies alongside mythical beasts, jaguars aren't canids, and jaguar men are the embodiment of "mythology meets the nineties’ pop culture" (Action 52 and Hexen II, I am looking at you).

Make them fast and always first to strike even when retaliating, negating even the «no enemy retaliation» ability. Give them otherwise unremarkable stats. They’ll be like wolves but more on the «dare not touch me» side.

Werewolves would look too much like dumbed down gnolls while mantises are such a lovely comeback from Heroes IV that also possess a visual charm rivalled only by the Wizard’s boars. Wasps and Dragonflies felt like an unremarkable filler both in HoMM and M&M.

What about shifting some of the Toad’s palette to make it look less like a regular toad and more like a fantasy creature? Say giving it a red zebra paint job over the green base. Green and red is an uncomfortable color combo that’s very difficult to make look natural, but when done right it would look amazing.



The Treant definitely should attack by swinging at the enemy with the spiky vines covering its arms and trunk (because, you know, it’s jungle and shiet, and the rule of cool).

Could Eagle Eye become a viable skill if it triggered a roll every time an enemy hero uses a spell in combat?

Like every time they cast something that our hero has the qualification to learn, there's a chance of instantly learning that spell right on the battlefield and you can use it right away in this very same battle.

Methinks this could be a more conservative (and fun) alternative to the Spell Research feature introduced in HotA.

Imagine intentionally jumping a much stronger enemy army merely to let the enemy hero spam Mass Slow or the like with the sole purpose of stealing a couple of their spells that you don't have in your Mage Guilds. Then you retreat, re-hire the hero from a tavern and use his Scholar skill to teach the stolen spell(s) to your other heroes.

The only way to counter Eagle Eye would be to learn Eagle Eye yourself, so that a bunch of spells stolen from you are recompensed by stealing some spells from the adversary in the meantime.

Also this opens up another interesting strategy of avoiding or limiting the use of your most prized spells in battles against known Eagle Eyers — especially if the player is sure he can win without them because even a defeated enemy hero will retain every stolen spell, one day returning with vengeance. The Scouting skill could also benefit from this mechanic because knowing if your enemy has Eagle Eye AND the required qualification to learn your best spells can be pivotal in your decision whether to risk using them in a battle you bet you could win otherwise. No Scouting = no way to see which skills the enemy has, now that's a gamble! Expert Scouting = ability to see an enemy's exact skill levels.

Longer, more massive battles would result in more spells learned from the enemy, scaling the usefulness of Eagle Eye as a game progresses.

To make things even more interesting, the chance to successfully steal a spell on each individual roll of the skill could exponentionally accumulate the more times the same spell is used by the enemy in combat, forcing the enemy to diversify their spell use as much as possible to minimize the chance for each individual spell to get stolen by the opposing Eagle Eyer.

One thing I don't like about Spell Research in HotA is that it allows pumping a player's resources to reroll the research options until you nail your spell roster in a single town the way you want it to be. I guess the feature was introduced mainly for PvP on some of the smaller maps where missing out on a specific spell in your measly couple of towns could pretty much spell a painful delayed defeat. On larger maps with tons of mines this could easily be abused early-to-mid game to convert excess resources into a critical advantage.

Utilizing Eagle Eye in the same capacity takes the resources out of the equation and makes the whole mechanic map-agnostic, incentivizing more combat encounters and making even defeats meaningful.

There has been much debate in the community whether certain spells are ridiculously OP and game breakers, now with Eagle Eye overhauled spamming any spell will eventually end up with it landing in every other player's spellbook — especially if H3SW one day adopts a magic system without strict division between the schools of magic. Also literally every spell in the game will be inherently more useful because the more you diversify your spell use, the fewer spells the enemy Eagle Eyers will steal.