Viking Class - New might class idea

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Heroes 2 creatures are in fact composed of many elements so that they have 1-2 base colors and 2-4 decorative colors.

Not all of them I think, no? Most - yes! But what about elementals, golems, mummies and ghosts? They don't have that many colors. There is 1 main colour, one for the borders, one for details and that's it.

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Viking is already a copy of a Barbarian

There are similarities, but that's not completely true. Plus, the concept is not static. Let's say we change the name to the Nord and add a bit more of paganism, animalism and totemism, which I think is the way to go. There won't be druids obviously, but it will shift towards the Good more. Concept can be adjusted. What important is gameplay and style of the faction. These are very different for both classes.

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werewolf+yeti+bear

I see a lot of people dislike too many animal creatures in the castle, which is based on animal worship/respect of the wild beast. Even though these three are quite different and have only one thing in common - fur. I guess it can be changed, but I don't see how is it worse than Goblin+Orc+Ogre+Troll / Fairy+Dwarf+Elf+Druid / Rogue+Acolyte+Nomad (not saying there is anything wrong with these)

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I must also note that the concept of the project is already thought about until v3.0, and the approximate lore and other plans are also already developed.

This is a good argument. You are the developers and we respect it. Without the project, we won't be even thinking of this. I am just hoping that we as a community can also have some influence on the development (yay! fans say no to Forge! )

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Still, there are such projects as Project Ironfist which drastically need new concepts (and artists in general) to fill the gaps.

This is nice, but I myself is not too interested in playing Heroes II, even modded. Whole art style and sound design are ruined by the unbalanced gameplay for me. If someone wants to take the concept for Project Ironfist - I am more than happy. But I myself don't have much interest in it. H3SW on the other hand...

P.S. About the snow: I know it is not a soil, duh! It is water. But from gameplay point of view it is soil. That is the only thing important. From the lore point of view snow itself is not important at all, it's just for the gameplay.

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Not all of them I think, no? Most - yes! But what about elementals, golems, mummies and ghosts? They don't have that many colors. There is 1 main colour, one for the borders, one for details and that's it.

All of them. The niches of a mammal (boar) and bird (roc) are already taken by the respective creatures. Making more of them is a bad tone.

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There are similarities, but that's not completely true. Plus, the concept is not static. Let's say we change the name to the Nord and add a bit more of paganism, animalism and totemism, which I think is the way to go. There won't be druids obviously, but it will shift towards the Good more. Concept can be adjusted. What important is gameplay and style of the faction. These are very different for both classes.

Paganism, animalism and totemism are already utilized in other new factions for the project.

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I see a lot of people dislike too many animal creatures in the castle, which is based on animal worship/respect of the wild beast. Even though these three are quite different and have only one thing in common - fur.

You seriously have to look over classic lineups once more to understand what's wrong in yours.

Rogue+Acolyte+Nomad is a lesser evil, we had to devise a specific castle gameplay and hardened it with the lore of Might&Magic VI.

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Without the project, we won't be even thinking of this.

I strictly advise you to change your mind. There is a working alternative to implement your ideas, and the fans will be glad to play one more new faction.

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yay! fans say no to Forge!

Even the Forge (Cyborg class) is more likely to appear in H3SW due to the many reasons.

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This is nice, but I myself is not too interested in playing Heroes II, even modded. Whole art style and sound design are ruined by the unbalanced gameplay for me.

You can make your own gameplay rules for your mod based on PI: creature stats, whatever.

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P.S. About the snow: I know it is not a soil, duh! It is water. But from gameplay point of view it is soil. That is the only thing important. From the lore point of view snow itself is not important at all, it's just for the gameplay.

Any castle can be covered in snow.

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Any castle can be covered in snow.

This phrase exactly doesn't make any sense to me. Everything else I can at least try to understand, even though I don't fully agree. But what do you mean by that?
You are not gonna really cover them in snow(townscreen), are you?

For me, it is about a simple game mechanic from Heroes 3. You have the creatures of respective terrain, you traverse it without penalty. How the fact what all of them can be covered in snow matters here?

Okay, maybe you will change the mechanic somehow. Will you remove the movement penalty on all terrains? Snow only? Will that make any sense?
Or not and then the snow is going to become royal pain in the bum, which can only be generated in the rich zone. Because if it is generated for one of the players, then he is obviously at disadvantage.

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mammal (boar)

There is also wolf and somehow they live together. While Heroes 3 have NO animals at all. Which makes a third animal quite a possible addition IMHO

I don't care about climate, weather, landscape, etc. I care about keeping as much snow as possible in game and adding some creatures, be they neutral or from new town, to enrich the experience. That's all.

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For me, it is about a simple game mechanic from Heroes 3. You have the creatures of respective terrain, you traverse it without penalty. How the fact what all of them can be covered in snow matters here?

I am not entirely sure if we are to save the terrain bonuses.

Moreover, it's natural for everyone to have problems in snow while there is no native castle for snow.

Heroes 2 didn't have any terrain bonuses and this is one of the conditions which allowed to put towns on different terrains freely, providing more complex and dynamic atmosphere.

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Will you remove the movement penalty on all terrains?

Not of course.

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Which makes a third animal quite a possible addition IMHO

Wolf goes fine with the Barbarian, having a specific ability. Boar was a replacement for the Toad which was once planned for Wizard.
Spawning a lot of animals not having many differences is not the right way for game design.

The only possibilities for these developments for now is adding some interesting neutrals.

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The only possibilities for these developments for now is adding some interesting neutrals.

Any creature from the proposed town can be used as a neutral, that's the original plan. They all fit the setting, given the right drawing. I'd say gremlins are the weakest unit in terms of design, but given a proper redesign they can fit into the game nicely.

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I am not entirely sure if we are to save the terrain bonuses.

But that sounds lame for witch and dervish, who you expect to do better on their own soil. That seems very natural and intuitive.

And I cannot imagine any sort of balance without either removing as much snow as possible or just breaking it. Can you imagine how much slower you'll be if your opponent plays on a relatively okay terrain? It's suicide in multiplayer.

As for cyborg, I would've advised against it. Not that I mind the idea itself, but Heroes II for me are about the style and fairytale. They are awesome in their art style, sound design, little details. But I won't be playing it with cyborgs. Or I might go through campaign once and that's it. It's just me, for me it is all about aesthetics. Fantasy and sci-fi can live together, but in some other game. Maybe Heroes 3 or 4 or even 5, but not 2.

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Your draft requires about 8 hours more to complete, and that's gonna only be the static form. Moreover, it is composed of only 1 main color and no decorative colors, which is a large disadvantage not allowing this creature to fit the style. I wouldn't call that easy at all.

I strongly disagree, but well, it's your opinion and I do respect it, man. Thanks for sharing it!

On the other hand, I recommend the administrators or devs, laissez faire, laissez passer regarding the iideas or concepts proposed by the... commoners here . If the whole thing is turning out to be a cold-blooded dictatorship, well, the fun'll go to hell (no offense!).

Anyway, it seems HSW III is currently settled and decided. Perhaps Orzie is right, and you Nikita or any other entrepreneur have to move on to Ironfist lands!

Well, just a thought!

Well, sometimes Orzie can be really stubborn and look at even tiniest details, while ignoring things in other places. I agree that concept is way too rough at the moment and some changes are necessary, yet I don't think it's impossible to make it good. I think it can be very sweet. And lore to me personally plays a much lesser role. It's a nice addition and you don't want to break it,but expanding and going beyond might be better. Does anyone play heroes for interesting plot? Don't think so, even if it is not bad.
I will understand if the faction does not appear in game, but I won't understand it if the Cyborg does. Or if Heretic is going to be all sci-fi zerg style. Well, everyone tastes are different, but don't tell me Viking breaks the game more than Cyborg, because this is simply ridiculous.

NikitaTheTanner wrote:

I will understand if the faction does not appear in game, but I won't understand it if the Cyborg does. Or if Heretic is going to be all sci-fi zerg style. Well,  everyone tastes are different, but don't tell me Viking breaks the game more than Cyborg, because this is simply ridiculous.

Agreed 100 %

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I strongly disagree, but well, it's your opinion

Alright, I'll spend some time to explain, for the first and the last time.

Here we've got very rough creature texture, all-the-same gray-ish gamma.


Original creatures have much softer color transitions. This is what makes H2 style, alongside with concepts.
Lineart is easy, but proper color transitions will take from 5 to 8 hours more approximately. It will not be H2 style otherwise.
What makes pixel art pixel art is the importance of every pixel you use. It's not pixel art otherwise, it's just a digital image drawn with mouse instead of Wacom tablet or whatever. In your image you can change almost every pixel without a noticeable effect.


Creature size is exaggerated.

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Well, sometimes Orzie can be really stubborn and look at even tiniest details, while ignoring things in other places. I agree that concept is way too rough at the moment and some changes are necessary, yet I don't think it's impossible to make it good. I think it can be very sweet. And lore to me personally plays a much lesser role. It's a nice addition and you don't want to break it,but expanding and going beyond might be better. Does anyone play heroes for interesting plot? Don't think so, even if it is not bad.
I will understand if the faction does not appear in game, but I won't understand it if the Cyborg does. Or if Heretic is going to be all sci-fi zerg style. Well, everyone tastes are different, but don't tell me Viking breaks the game more than Cyborg, because this is simply ridiculous.

The Viking concept is possible to make it good, but there is no place for it in the H3SW design document.
Nobody stops you from adding it later and making a somewhat fork (even if I don't like it anyway).
The official release of H3SW will have only lore-wise factions, campaigns featuring them and overall style. There is no place for snow faction there.

Guys, I am a game designer. H3SW is much like HotA in what we do: classic feel, atmosphere, continuation of Enrothian lore and filling the white spots in it. It's not about adding new content just like we can, or adding new might factions "just because the game needs it". No, the game doesn't need any new factions, it's okay with the classic 6. I was able to devise a concept to fit the Witch and Dervish via MM lore, and no one told me it's not atmospheric, but still it's a questionable decision, aimed to save the developments of the previous team.

I understand you defending your ideas because they sound perfect to you, but I would suggest getting some drawing experience first. There are such things as common beauty and atmosphere feel, which sometimes are hard to catch. For some reason, DrSlash, who is a professional artist (see his game Quest for Infamy in Google), never questions my work, and his sprite drafts are very close to H2 style.

Sure, Orzie! You're right. Forgive us for being so narrow-minded! hahahaha! I'll do more practice myself Thank you for the recommendation.

By the way, either the bear or the "yeti" took me 20 minutes tops each one. Naturally they have to be improved, but we're not talkin' about that, don't we?

It can be improved, and I will have to think more about the further refinements of the concept. It might appear in H3SW as level 6-7 neutral.

Anyway, I insist: they're just drafts in the strict sense of the term. They were designed to make Viking's concept presentable, nothing more. Nobody said it was a final-and-polished sprits designed to undermine your "authority". How would they be, chap? I mean, I'm not even sure whether they have to be even "considered" for further developments... I need to think about it myself and spit some other ideas I have in mind.

If I tell you the truth, I don't care too much about the concept showed here by Nikita, nor the inclusion of a new faction at all. I agree with you that H2's original factions are definitely enough. No, amigo mío, the striking thing here is you letting the people express themselves and have fun. Trust me: in the end, every single idea (even the "lame" ones) will enrich your work: they're the vivid testimony of people's getting involved and excited by all this wonderful framework.

It's just a game and a diversion, nothing more. How old are you? I've spent countless hours playing Heroes from the first installment to the last, so your love and devotions are, at least, equal to mine. ¿Pro artists, pro devs? Who gives a ****?   . Are you a "pro" dev or an "indie/fan" one? I don't really care, man. I just adore your work the same.

Our opinions or anyone else's opinions have to be welcomed, 'cause HSW III's team is not 3DO's... It's even better

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It's not about adding new content just like we can, or adding new might factions "just because the game needs it". No, the game doesn't need any new factions, it's okay with the classic 6.

Here I actually wholeheartedly agree. I will be satisfied with original six being well done. Heck, addition of crossbowman and trebuchet to the Knight already feels very nice for me. It seemed almost lacking when I've recently played H2.
And no, I am not proposing a new class/faction because I want more variety. Variety can be good, but quality is more important.
Two reasons I even proposed Viking:
1. Absence of snow based faction(while all other "terrains" are covered)
2. Several good "neutral" creature concepts which fit well together(berserk, werewolf, snow queen, valkyrie, yeti)

After some time I thought it might be a good solution to solve both problems. I am almost sure the tests will show need or at least a desire for snow based faction. I also don't think having a group of "neutral" creatures who fit well together is logical.

Everything else - name, lore, concepts, are coming from these reasons. I would definitely prefer to see these creatures as neutrals as opposed to not seeing them at all, but if bringing them together can solve another gameplay issue, than it is all for the best.

And I don't really understand the argument that snow faction is irrelevant. The game is going to be on H3 engine and with some semblance of H3 balance. Terrain alignment is an important gameplay modifier in H3. Even if H2 had different system regarding terrains, it still can't be ignored. Witch, Dervish and Heretic make a lot of progress in that area, but snow remains uncovered.

P.S. Regarding the bear:
It is probably only me, but I don't see bears as just plain animals. Even in real life there is something magical about them to me. They are majestic. They don't even need some cool abilities, just being present is already making them special to me. And white bears are probably even more so. So from my point of view it is not just another mammal, but almost an icon of the North. That is why I advocate for their presence in the game, but that's just my tastes.

hey guys, just a quick post asking you to be kind to Orzie, although I get where you guys are coming from, as I see it he's not trying to offend you or be an elitist at all, he's trying to share tips and hold your project to a very high standard in good faith, to help maintain the Heroes 2 aesthetic and help your concept be the best it can be lol

if everyone strives to apply a common level of quality (or at least consistency) to Heroes 2 modding, it protects the reputation of the modding community and protects people's investment, whereas a free-for-all can only divide everyone's efforts and compromise people's first impressions (just look at WoG with its lame recolored level 8 creatures and sprites stolen from other games, it's a god-tier mod but that stuff is very jarring and drags down the otherwise amazing package to a lower level) lol

of course it's all fun and games, and modding is supposed to be fun, but you only get out what you put in, and if everyone does the best they can do then the end user will have the best experience they can have, which rocks lol

Sure, no drama. He talked, we talked back. Law of nature.

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if everyone strives to apply a common level of quality (or at least consistency) to Heroes 2 modding, it protects the reputation of the modding community

100 % Agreed. That's what we're doing here: keep the flame alive. I mean, not somebody's torch, but everyone's. :cyclops:

Nikita, I'm trying to make time these days. Working some watercolours on your concept, mainly the town screen, among other things I left behind. Actually, I'm gonna gather all my stuff and starting up a new DevianArt's page... in the next weeks.

Thanks tophatchild, but you don't have to do it. Do it only if you want to, please. I don't want to force you into it. But I do appreciate it. Though it is probably better to focus on the creatures first, because even if the town is not included in the game, some of the creatures still might be able to make it.

As for the concept - any new ideas are welcome. It doesn't have to be a viking/Nord, but it has to be something simple and related to the northern myths/fairytales. Bard is a possible candidate, but I have no idea how to incorporate him.

Any ideas are welcome - lore, units, castle, design, etc.

Well of course, Nikita! Consider it as a gift from your old chap Tophatchild

I'm not forced to do whatsoever, man. I'm doing it 'cause I'm trying to elaborate some artwork H2-based and your proposal is inspiring. Believe me: I was aware right from the start that your faction was just an idea, but it's fun and well-put. You'll see it on paper;D

I won't talk about the lore, nor the skills, neither the stats. Not my field. Personally my first motivation playing Heroes is its graphic interface, besides map-making. Your case is, perhaps, too specific: H2 was generic, naïf and cartoonish... Even though there're people who put on the table stuff like Demon faction or Cyborg's which are, in my opinion, far worse options than yours.

A "Bard" thingy sounds catchy for me. I'll dig in this direction, I mean, graphically speaking. On the other hand, if it's a snow-based faction, there's stuff we should contemplate, such as Christmas-related creatures and whatnot.

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H2 was generic, naïf and cartoonish

I am honestly thinking that it is possible to achieve H2 style with similar concepts to that of the Nord. I have a vision myself, but I am not an artist, so it is very general.
The main focus on the art should be simplicity and strength. Fur, some muscles, some northern cold and beauty. That's the general idea. More wood for the buildings, style similar to Skyrim's Whiterun perhaps. Pines and snowy mountains as surroundings, maybe also a sea shore in the background.
As for heroes, I envision faction having a lot of bearded heroes and braids for both men and women. Yeah, there will be some similarities to Barbarians(e.g. Crag Hack), but there is no clear consistency between the portraits in the original game, only general sense of similarity(some heroes were intended for different factions). I am not talking about the style, the style is very specific.
I might work on the concepts myself, when I have some spare time.

Well, here you're the first concept. Since my scanner seems to be kinda short, I took a picture. I'll pick up a new -bigger- one pretty soon, I guess  :cyclops:


There's a shortage of buildings in this first approach, but either way it's optimal to picture the whole Viking-Northern thing, I think. I fathom Valhalla to be a high palace carving in the very entrails of the distant mountains, and the Viking buildings are easy to identify: the hall where the beardmen got drunk, the temple (I mean, the great castle) located in the middle, etc. I'm sure you people will be able to glimpse the rest    

And I realized I made this watercolour based on one of my fav H2's heroes portraits some time ago. I hope you like it!


I always be slightly reluctant to scanning anything I paint. There's a loss somewhere in the process... I'm not sure where but there it is. Watercolours are fine to catch Heroes's spiritus, I think, beside oil pastels. I'll keep digging.

Enjoy and tell me your thoughts. Anyone here willing to undertake a new faction for painting?, hahahaha  

Great art, tophatchild!
It's not exactly what I had imagined, but close to it. More importantly there is this magical/faerie feeling to it, similar to Heroes 2. It does not feel like it belongs there yet, but it can definitely be fixed. The drawing is great, nevertheless
A bit of my thoughts, here I will try to be critical, but don't take it to heart. It's for the sake of improving the concept.
The styles are a bit of a mix. While I like a lot of it, some of it does not fit as well as it should. Ice palace looks amazing, but does not fit too well with the rest of the town. It's just too awesome and too specific. I am thinking it should be either a generic small castle or a more crude structure made of ice, possibly even in the side of the mountain.

Maybe like the one in the background:

That way it will not ruin the composition by bringing a very different style into the mix. Mages Guild and Valhalla both look kinda strange. I am not too sure about them yet. But I would've liked the Guild near the Ice Palace, since its Snow Queens, who are gonna use it more often. The right side of the town in my plans was more deserted, a place where mostly beasts roam. But that's okay.
Night sky? I personally think it's a bad idea, because faction is far from evil. It gives some atmosphere of South Pole and Santa, but removes the feeling of freedom. I think the best possible background will be some mountains, ocean and blue sky, but then the pier will need to be relocated. And lastly, the castle. While the style is great, it is very unconventional. No wall around it, no towers. Something like that would do a great capitol, but the castle should probably offer more protection.
I will draw my concept soon(at least try doing it) to show off some of my ideas. But even though I had so much to say, I still think it is a very good art.

Beutiful! I would definitely see this castle in-game. Even this mix of styles makes the entirety more fabulous - I would not change it except cerkow, it is a bit out of place to me (but that's probably because they're quite common in my region ). I am supporting this project with my whole soul

tophatchild wrote:

Very nice Barok out there. Besides, we have got a separate thread for fan art
And yeah, we are waiting for your DA page to come.

Thanks Uhm, Orzie and Nikita for the kind words! I truly appreciate the constructive feedback; it makes me rethink my concepts and above all, it provides me an endless source of inspiration.

Don't worry about the criticism, Nikita! I had the feeling that your idea was pretty much other, but personally when I think of a snow-based faction, I can't help myself picturing something like I proposed.

NikitaTheTanner wrote:

there is this magical/faerie feeling to it, similar to Heroes 2.

Yeah! That's what I wanted to achieve, so I'm more than proud. Thanks!

NikitaTheTanner wrote:

The styles are a bit of a mix. While I like a lot of it, some of it does not fit as well as it should.

Umm, I don't agree. In my opinion, H2 art style is delightfully paradoxical and magically contradictory. Actually, I regret having proposed the dwarves's extraction...   They fit and belong to Sorceress, according to the faerical, ironic and naïf milieu constructed by NWC's masterminds. On the other hand, I do agree that the whole faction line-up must be severally implemented.

NikitaTheTanner wrote:

That way it will not ruin the composition by bringing a very different style into the mix. Mages Guild and Valhalla both look kinda strange. I am not too sure about them yet. But I would've liked the Guild near the Ice Palace, since its Snow Queens, who are gonna use it more often. The right side of the town in my plans was more deserted, a place where mostly beasts roam.

I tell you what I'm gonna do: a new watercolour landscape based exclusively on your vision, but I lean for submitting two or three line-ups to the consideration of our colleagues here, in order to make the whole thing more collaborative and consensual. For instance, Uhm seems to be more inclined to this first vision than the one you proposed... Well, I guess in the end we have to compare them and see which one fits better in H2's lore.

Anyway, before to do that, I'm planning to delineate the creatures, either using inks or watercolours... or both!

NikitaTheTanner wrote:

Night sky? I personally think it's a bad idea, because faction is far from evil. It gives some atmosphere of South Pole and Santa, but removes the feeling of freedom.

Sure, night sky's my very honest proposal for the Northern faction. This is one of the few things I'm pretty sure about. And certainly I don't mix up the starry night portrayed with meanness of any kind. I agree with the Santa thingy, that's what I intended to reflect here!  

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Besides, we have got a separate thread for fan art Smile
And yeah, we are waiting for your DA page to come.

Sorry, Orzie! Once I materialize more Heroes fan art, I'll make use of this marvelous thread, for sure (pretty stuff displayed there!). The DevianArt account should wait till I'll grab a new scanner, hehehe   . It's a pity you can't be able to see the townscreen in full resolution, since both the colours and the details are a bit blurred.

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constructed by 3DO's masterminds.

3DO never took any part in HoMM development, it's a publisher.

Moreover, NWC (New World Computing) became a 3DO's department only in 1998. HoMM3 was the first Heroes game under 3DO.

My bad Thanks for the input. Already corrected!