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 [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills

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PostSubject: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:10

Quote from this post: http://www.ironfi.st/forum/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=6&start=30

Quote :
Some Secondary Skills I would like to try in Heroes 2.

Offense:

Increases the damage in hand-to-hand combat.

Basic: +10% damage.
Advanced: +20% damage.
Expert: +30% damage.


*****


Defense:

Reduces the damage in combat.

Basic: -10% damage.
Advanced: -20% damage.
Expert: -30% damage.


*****


Sorcery:

Increases Hero Spell Power.

Basic: +1 to Spell Power.
Advanced: +3 to Spell Power.
Expert: +5 to Spell Power.


*****


Resistance:

Reduces enemy Hero Spell Power during combat.

Basic: -1 to enemy Spell Power.
Advanced: -2 to enemy Spell Power.
Expert: -3 to enemy Spell Power.

Note: the enemy Hero Spell Power cannot be less than 1.


*****


Learning: But the AI must be teached how to use it between heroes.

Increases experience gained by hero during combat, allows hero to automatically exchange spells with other heroes during trading sessions. Hero learns spells that he/she doesn't know and teaches spells other hero doesn't know.

Basic: +25% experience, teach and learn spells level 2 and below.
Advanced: +50% experience, teach and learn spells level 3 and below.
Expert: +100% experience, teach and learn spells level 4 and below.

Note: the hero must have the appropriate level of Wisdom to learn spells.


*****


Tactics: But this one only if the AI can fully use it.

Allows you to arrange your troops on the battlefield before combat begins.

Basic: Your tactics - enemy tactics = 1, placement allowed within the first 2 hex coloumns.
Advanced: Your tactics - enemy tactics = 2, placement allowed within the first 3 hex coloumns.
Expert: Your tactics - enemy tactics = 3, placement allowed within the first 4 hex coloumns.

And an option for the Tactics skill:
No movement penalties for embarking and disembarking on boat, the hero can move on the water when he embarks, and he can move on ground when he disembarks, if he has movement points left.
I adjusted values for Sorcery and Resistance skills.

Sorcery:
Increases Hero Spell Power.

Basic: +2 to Spell Power.
Advanced: +4 to Spell Power.
Expert: +6 to Spell Power.

*****

Resistance: (Magic Resistance)
Reduces enemy Hero Spell Power during combat.

Basic: -1 to enemy Spell Power.
Advanced: -3 to enemy Spell Power.
Expert: -5 to enemy Spell Power.

Note: the enemy Hero Spell Power cannot be less than 1.

*****

I added Intelligence skill.

Intelligence:
Increases Hero Knowledge.

Basic: +2 to Knowledge.
Advanced: +4 Knowledge.
Expert: +6 to Knowledge.

*****

Chance for secondary skills to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Offense: 3
Defense: 3
Sorcery: 1
Resistance: 4
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 2
Tactics: 2

**

Knight
Offense: 4
Defense: 1
Sorcery: 1
Resistance: 4
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 2
Tactics: 3

**

Necromancer
Offense: 2
Defense: 3
Sorcery: 3
Resistance: 2
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 3
Tactics: 2

**

Sorceress
Offense: 2
Defense: 4
Sorcery: 4
Resistance: 3
Learning: 1
Intelligence: 1
Tactics: 2

**

Warlock
Offense: 2
Defense: 2
Sorcery: 3
Resistance: 2
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 4
Tactics: 2

**

Wizard
Offense: 3
Defense: 2
Sorcery: 3
Resistance: 2
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 3
Tactics: 2

**

I think that graphics used for Primary skills can be adjusted and used for the new skills, at least as placeholder, so it can be possible to test the new skills in game.

Attack skill graphic for Offense secondary skill.

Defense skill graphic for Defense secondary skill.

Spell Power graphic for Sorcery secondary skill.

Knowledge skill graphic for Intelligence secondary skill.

The yellow/red EXP star when a hero has to choose between Gold or Xp when he opens a chest can also be adjusted and used for the Learning secondary skill.

The Anti-Magic spell graphic can be reworked for the Resistance secondary skill.

For the Tactics secondary skill, I don't know if it can be easily implemented, so it can wait.
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Orzie_
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:10

The Magic Resistance skill can work, but I would rather have it like 10/20/30% damage absorbing like the Golems do. This skill can be native to the heroes of the Cyborg class.
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Darmani_
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:11

I don't know what to think about Intelligence and Sorcery. On the one hand, it would make for some very interesting games to have a Level 3 Warlock with 8 spellpower at the price of a skill slot. On the other hand, every new secondary skill makes you less likely to get every other secondary skill, and these don't really add new facets to the gameplay. It would basically produce the same effect as a hero finding the Mage's Ring or some other spellpower artifact.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:11

@Orzie

Quote :
The Magic Resistance skill can work, but I would rather have it like 10/20/30% damage absorbing like the Golems do.
The problem with % values is that they only work with damage spells.
Flat numbers (-1, -3, -5) work with every types of spells (damage spells, Slow, Blind, Resurrection, etc.). The goal is to reduce the enemy magic power.
With an enemy low level hero of magic, the skill is really efficient.
With an enemy hero with 10 in Spell Power, it's a 50% reduction in magic, nice.
With an enemy hero with 15 in Spell Power, it's a 33% reduction in magic.
With an enemy hero with 20 in Spell Power, it's a 25% reduction in magic.
And even with an enemy hero with 25 in Spell Power, it's a 20% reduction in magic.

@Darmani

Quote :
I don't know what to think about Intelligence and Sorcery... ...It would basically produce the same effect as a hero finding the Mage's Ring or some other spellpower artifact.
There are already secondary skills that work this way.

Estates, basically it's a gold generator artifact.
Leadership, it's three artifacts +1 to Moral in one slot.
Logistics, it's a movement bonus artifact.
Luck, three artifacts +1 to Luck in one slot.
Navigation, it's a movement bonus artifact on water.
Scouting, three Telescopes in one slot.

Sorcery can replace the Caster's Bracelet of Magic (Spell Power +2) and the Arcane Necklace of Magic (Spell Power +4) , so the hero can have two free slots for others type of artifacts, or keep them to improve further his Spell Power.

Intelligence can replace the Minor Scroll of Knowledge (Knowledge +2) and the Superior Scroll of Knowledge (Knowledge +4).

Intelligence allows to have a hero who can cast high cost spells throughout the duration of the battle, or can move further (with spells), and don't need to go often to a Castle/Magic Well to replenish spell points.

The Sorceress hero, is already great for this. With a Sorceress hero, you can cast spells like Mass spells, Resurrection, Berserk, Chain Lightning, Summon Elemental spells all combat long without worrying about spell points.

And a value of 6 is a nice boost, it's half the value of an Ultimate artifact.

Quote :
On the one hand, it would make for some very interesting games to have a Level 3 Warlock with 8 spellpower at the price of a skill slot. On the other hand, every new secondary skill makes you less likely to get every other secondary skill, and these don't really add new facets to the gameplay.
They add diversity to the possibilities of hero advancement. They add more possibilities for the mix between hero Secondary Skills and equipped artifacts. It's a great feature in Heroes 2, I like to exchange artifacts between heroes to shape them accordingly to my needs in the game.
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Darmani_
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:11

You're right. Good points.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:12

Some new Secondary Skills.

Enchantment:

Allows to enchant artifacts in the hero inventory.
The bonuses of enchanted artifacts are doubled, the maluses are removed.
The spell contained in an enchanted Spell Scroll can be cast at free cost once per combat for combat spell, and once per day for adventure spells.

Basic: Allows to enchant 1 combat artifact, 1 adventure artifact and 1 Spell Scroll (POL).
Advanced: Allows to enchant 2 combat artifacts, 2 adventure artifacts and 2 Spell Scrolls (POL).
Expert: Allows to enchant 3 combat artifacts, 3 adventure artifacts and 3 Spell Scrolls (POL).

**

Ex: Enchant the Dragon Sword of Dominion (Attack +3), doubles the bonus: Attack +6.

Ex: Enchant the Heart of Fire (POL)(provides 50% protection from fire, but doubles the damage taken from cold), doubles the bonus and removes the malus, so the gain becomes: your troops are immune to Fire spells and the damage from Cold spells are normal.

Ex: Enchant the Arm of the Martyr (POL)(increases your Spell Power by 3, but adds the undead morale penalty), doubles the bonus: Spell Power +6, and removes the undead morale penalty (only from the artifact, not from troops in hero army).

Ex: Enchant the Hideous Mask (cursed artifact)(prevents all wandering armies from joining your hero), removes the malus (so the troops can join your hero army), but the hero is still penalized by the occupied slot.

Ex: Enchant the Spell Scroll (POL) with Slow spell, the hero can cast the Slow spell at free cost once during combat.

Ex: Enchant the Spell Scroll (POL) with Dimension Door spell, the hero can cast the Dimension Door spell at free cost once per day.

Ex: Enchant the Elemental Ring (halves the cost of all summoning spells), reduces the cost of all your summoning spells to 25% (3 points for "Set Guardian" spells, 7 points for "Summon Elemental" spells).

**

Some Artifacts are considered combat type, ex: Attack, Defense, Spell Power, Morale, Luck bonuses.

Some Artifacts are considered adventure type, ex: Resource, Movement, Hero's viewing range bonuses.

Some Artifacts are considered both combat and adventure type, ex: Knowledge, Summoning Elemental (Elemental Ring, Book of Elements) bonuses.

Some Artifacts cannot be enchanted (no bonuses can be added), ex: Crystal Ball (POL)(lets you get more specific information about monsters, enemy heroes and castles nearby the hero who holds it), Sphere of Negation (POL)(disables all spell casting for both sides in combat), all "immune to spell" artifacts (ex: Pendant of Life (makes all your troops immune to death spells)).

**

Ultimate Artifacts and Artifacts Sets (assembled) cannot be enchanted (ex: Battle Garb (POL)(Sword of Anduran + Breastplate of Anduran + Hemlet of Anduran)), too powerful (but the separate parts can be enchanted separately, and the enchantements are automatically canceled when the three parts are combined).

The enchantment is automatically removed when an enchanted artifact is moved to another allied hero inventory during meeting (unless the other hero has learned the Enchantment skill and he has not already the maximum number of enchanted artifacts).

**

How it work:

In hero inventory, maintained right click on an artifact displays a temporary window with artifact information; and left click on an artifact opens a window with artifact information and an "OK" button (to close the window).

**

If the hero has learned the Enchantment secondary skill:


With a not enchanted artifact:

Maintained right click on the artifact displays a temporary window with artifact information, and some info are added "Can be enchanted" (if the artifact can be enchanted), "3 Combat Artifacts can still be enchanted" (depending the situation).

Left click on the artifact opens a window with artifact information, and some info are added "Can be enchanted" (if the artifact can be enchanted), "3 Combat Artifacts can still be enchanted" (depending the situation); an "OK" button (to close the window) and an "Enchant" button is added to allow to enchant the artifact (and closes the window at the same time).

Once enchanted, the graphic of the Artifact is updated to visually inform the player (so he know which and how many artifacts are enchanted).


With an enchanted artifact:

Maintained right click on the artifact displays a temporary window with artifact information (bonus added), and some info are added "Enchanted Artifact", "2 Combat Artifacts can still be enchanted" (depending the situation).

Left click on the artifact opens a window with artifact information (bonus added), and some info are added "Enchanted Artifact", "2 Combat Artifacts can still be enchanted" (depending the situation); an "OK" button (to close the window) and an "Desenchant" button is added to allow to remove the enchantment (and closes the window at the same time).

Once the enchantment is removed, the graphic of the Artifact is updated.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Enchantment: 1

Knight
Enchantment: 1

Necromancer
Enchantment: 2

Sorceress
Enchantment: 3

Warlock
Enchantment: 2

Wizard
Enchantment: 3


*****
*****


Endurance:

Reduces the creatures movement penalty on the adventure map.

Basic: Your army moves as if the slowest creature has a minimum speed of 4.
Advanced: Your army moves as if the slowest creature has a minimum speed of 6.
Expert: Your army moves as if the slowest creature has a minimum speed of 7, your Hero gets Movement +1 (100 points).

**

How it work:

The Hero basic movement reserve without an army is 1500 points (Movement 15 on a 100% terrain type (no terrain bonus (ex: road, 75%), no terrain malus (ex: desert, 200%))).
The slowest creature speed in the hero army is used to determine the army movement.

**

With a creature with speed 7 (Ultra fast), the Hero has no penalty, movement 1500 points.

With a creature with speed 6 (Very fast), the Hero has 100 points penalty, movement 1400 points.

With a creature with speed 5 (Fast), the Hero has 200 points penalty, movement 1300 points.

With a creature with speed 4 (Average), the Hero has 300 points penalty, movement 1200 points.

With a creature with speed 3 (Slow), the Hero has 400 points penalty, movement 1100 points.

With a creature with speed 2 (Very Slow), the Hero has 500 points penalty, movement 1000 points.

**

Now a Hero with the Endurance secondary skill, level basic, has an army with the slowest creature considered with a minimum speed of 4.

A hero with a troop of Orcs (speed 2) moves as his army has a speed of 4, so the hero has 1200 movement points (speed 4) instead of 1000 movement points (speed 2).

Of course, if the hero has the Endurance secondary skill, level basic, with only a troop of speed 6, he will move 1400 points (speed 6) and not 1200 points (speed 4).

At Expert level, a hero with a troop of Orcs (speed 2) will have 1600 points (1500 points for minimum speed 7 and Movement +1 bonus (100 points).

**

With this skill, you can mix your troops in armies without worry about speed of creatures.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Endurance: 3

Knight
Endurance: 2

Necromancer
Endurance: 2

Sorceress
Endurance: 2

Warlock
Endurance: 1

Wizard
Endurance: 1
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Darmani_
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:13

All artifacts are pretty ad-hoc. I was going to say that the only way to implement enchantment would be to implement a separate check for all 100ish artifacts. That I realized you could just make it act as if you had two copies of the artifact.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:13

It depends on the artifact. With the Giant Flail of Dominion (Attack +1), the enchantment acts as if there were 2 artifacts, so all right.

With the Traveller's Boots of Mobility (increases your mobility on land, Movement +3 (300 points)), the bonus must become Movement +6 (600 points)); in this case, it should not be considered the hero possesses two times the same artifact (as the second bonus from the artifact don't count, the bonuses are not cumulative with certain artifacts).

In fact, it would be nice to have a separate xml file (just like the creatures.xml file) to be able to tweak the already in game artifacts and to add new artifacts.

An example with not limited needed entries, all names and numbers are for explanation only.

**

artifacts.xml file.

"Artifact Name", defines the artifact name.

ex:

Artifact_Name, Giant Flail of Dominion --> the artifact name.

**

"Artifact Level", defines the artifact level for random artifacts (ex: can be value "1", "2" and "3", "0" for Ultimate).

ex:

Artifact_Level, 1 --> Level 1 artifact.

**

Would be nice to add a rarity value, so it's possible to have a specific artifact but rarely.

"Rarity Value", defines the apparition frequency of the artifact (when random).

ex:

Rarity_Value, 10 --> used to determine the chance of apparition in the scenario.

**

"Artifact Effect", all the bonuses and maluses given by the artifact (can be more than one bonus/malus).

ex. for the same artifact:

Hero_AttackBonus_flat, 1 --> Hero gets Attack +1.

Hero_DefenseBonus_flat, 1 --> Hero gets Defense +1.

Spell_DamageBonus_DeathSpellsType_percent, 50 --> all Death spells makes 50 % more damage.

Creature_DamageBonus_UndeadOnly_VersusLivingOnly_percent, 50 --> Only all undead creature makes 50% more damage against only all living creatures.

Spell_DamageBonus_ColdRing_percent, 50 --> Cold Ring spell makes 50% more damage.

Spell_CostBonus_ColdRing_percent, 50 --> Cold Ring costs 50% less spell points to cast.

Spell_CostMalus_LightningBolt_percent, 50 --> Lightning Bolt costs 50% more spell points to cast.

etc.

**

Would be nice to add a cost value, so it's possible to buy/sell them in locations, castle buildings, etc.

"Artifact Cost", the artifact base cost to buy/sell it (can be gold and resource)(the base cost can be modified by modifiers (ex: 50%, 200%).

ex:

Artifact_BaseCost_gold, 2000 --> the artifact base cost is 2000 gold.

**

Allow to add a specific spell in an artifact.

"Artifact Only Spell", a specific spell given by the artifact (can be more than one, cannot appear in Mage Guild nor Shrine).

ex:

Artifact_OnlySpell, Shoot of Freedom --> gives the Shoot of Freedom spell to the hero (the hero must have a Magic Book); the spell is defined in another specific file.

**

"Artifact Guild Spell", a standard spell given by the artifact (can be more than one, can appear in Mage Guild and Shrine).

ex:

Artifact_GuildSpell, Slow --> gives the Slow spell to the hero (the hero must have a Magic Book).

**

"Cumulative Effect", if the bonus/malus can be added when the hero possesses more than one time the same artifact.

ex:

Cumulative_Effect, 0 --> the artifact effect cannot be added (for the value "1", the artifact effect can be added).

ex:

If the hero possesses the Medal of Distinction (Morale +1), he only gets one time the bonus (Morale +1 and not Morale +2).

If the hero possesses the Traveller's Boots of Mobility (increases your mobility on land, Movement +3 (300 points)), he only gets one time the bonus (Movement +3 (300 points) and not Movement +6 (600 points)).

**

For the use of the artifact with the Enchantment secondary skill.

"Can Be Enchanted", 1 --> allows or disallows (values "0" or "1") to enchant the artifact when the hero has the Enchantment secondary skill.

**

"Artefact Type", defines the type of the artifact.

ex:

Artefact_Type, 1 --> (ex: can be value "1", "2", "3" and "4"), "1" for Combat type , "2" for Adventure type, "3" for Combat/Adventure type , "4" for Spell Scroll type .

**

"Enchantment Skill Artifact Effect", defines clearly (removes and replaces the original bonus/malus) the bonuses added to the artifact when the hero enchants it with the Enchantment Secondary Skill.

ex:

Hero_AttackBonus_flat, 2 --> Hero gets Attack +2.

Spell_CostBonus_ColdRing_percent, 75 --> Cold Ring costs 75% less spell points to cast.

(Original artifact effect:

Hero_AttackBonus_flat, 1 --> Hero gets Attack +1.

Spell_CostBonus_ColdRing_percent, 50 --> Cold Ring costs 50% less spell points to cast.)

**

"Cursed Artifact At Game Start", 1 --> defines (values "0" or "1") if an artifact is cursed at game start, only used for the cursed artifacts at game start (ex: Hideous Mask, Fizbin of Misfortune, Tax Lien, etc.)

ex:

Skill_MoraleMalus, 2 --> removes 2 points to hero troops Morale (Fizbin of Misfortune).

Adventure_WanderingCreature_Joining, 0 --> prevents all wandering creatures from joining the hero army (Hideous Mask).

ResourceMalus_turn_gold, 250 --> costs you 250 gold per turn (Tax Lien).

**

Allow to have a different cost for each cursed artifact when removed.

"Cursed Artifact At Game Start Alchemist Remove Cost", defines the cost for removing a cursed artifact at the Alchemist's Tower (can be gold and resource).

CursedArtifactAtGameStart_AlchemistRemoveCost_gold, 1000 --> the cost to pay for removing the cursed artifact from the hero inventory, 1000 gold.

**

+ All the graphics needed for the artifact.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-07-21, 11:14

Quote :
Tactics: But this one only if the AI can fully use it.

Allows you to arrange your troops on the battlefield before combat begins.

Basic: Your tactics - enemy tactics = 1, placement allowed within the first 2 hex coloumns.
Advanced: Your tactics - enemy tactics = 2, placement allowed within the first 3 hex coloumns.
Expert: Your tactics - enemy tactics = 3, placement allowed within the first 4 hex coloumns.

And an option for the Tactics skill:
No movement penalties for embarking and disembarking on boat, the hero can move on the water when he embarks, and he can move on ground when he disembarks, if he has movement points left.
The Tactics Secondary Skill further adapted for Heroes 2. ;-)

Tactics: Gives extra Speed points to all your troops for the first turn during combat.

Basic: Tactics +1.
Advanced: Tactics +2.
Expert: Tactics +3.

Your tactics - enemy tactics = 1, gives +1 to Speed to all your troops for first combat turn.
Your tactics - enemy tactics = 2, gives +2 to Speed to all your troops for first combat turn.
Your tactics - enemy tactics = 3, gives +3 to Speed to all your troops for first combat turn.

So, there is no need to "teach" the AI, it's more "simple" and "automatic" for the player, and no need to implement a "positioning system for creatures" at combat start.

The Tactics skill also gives no movement penalties for embarking and disembarking on boat (the hero can move on the water when he embarks, and he can move on ground when he disembarks, if he has movement points left).

So, the skill is useful during combat and also on the adventure map.

**

Functioning with Slow and Haste spells:

The Slow and Haste spells act on the creature base movement, and the Tactics Speed bonus is added.

Ex:

A creature with base Speed 6 (ex: Boar) gets Speed 9 with the Tactics bonus 3, (6 (base Speed) + 3 (Tactics bonus 3)).

If the player casts Haste, the creature gets Speed 11, ((6 (base Speed) + 2 (Haste)) + 3 (Tactics bonus 3)).
Next turn the creature gets Speed 8, (6 (base Speed) + 2 (Haste)).

If the enemy hero casts Slow, the creature gets Speed 6, ((6 (base Speed) / 2 (Slow)) + 3 (Tactics bonus 3)).
Next turn the creature gets Speed 3, (6 (base Speed) / 2 (Slow)).
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Unknown_Hero
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Quality Points : 40
Registration Date : 2015-09-06

PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 06:08

Some new secondary skills for the new forum.  Smile

**

Adjustment for the secondary skills:

Quote :
Resistance: (Magic Resistance)
Reduces enemy Hero Spell Power during combat.

Basic: -1 to enemy Spell Power.
Advanced: -3 to enemy Spell Power.
Expert: -5 to enemy Spell Power.

Note: the enemy Hero Spell Power cannot be less than 1.

This skill is renamed as "Disruption".

Disruption:

Reduces enemy Hero Spell Power during combat.

Basic: -1 to enemy Spell Power.
Advanced: -3 to enemy Spell Power.
Expert: -5 to enemy Spell Power.

Note: the enemy Hero Spell Power cannot be less than 1.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types (adjustment).

Barbarian
Disruption: 1

**

Knight
Disruption: 1

**

Necromancer
Disruption: 3

**

Sorceress
Disruption: 2

**

Warlock
Disruption: 2

**

Wizard
Disruption: 2

**

This skill is more specific to the "heroes of Magic", as it's difficult to reduce the enemy hero's Spell Power.


*****
*****


Resistance: (Magic Resistance)

Reduces damage from all damage spells (own or enemy spells).

Basic: -10% damage from all damage spells.
Advanced: -25% damage from all damage spells.
Expert: -50% damage from all damage spells.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Resistance: 3

**

Knight
Resistance: 3

**

Necromancer
Resistance: 2

**

Sorceress
Resistance: 3

**

Warlock
Resistance: 1

**

Wizard
Resistance: 1

**

This skill is more specific to the "heroes of Might"; I set the reduction quite high (Expert: -50% damage), because the skill only affects spell damage and would not be too interesting with lower values, anyway need testing.


*****
*****


New secondary skills:

Guerilla:

Increases the damage during combat for the troops in the hero army, and reduces the cost of recruitment (with more heroes with the skill, the reduction of cost becomes greater (2 heroes with the skill give 10% reduction of cost)) in all creature generators (in town/castle generators, and in all creature generators on the map (City of the Dead, Troll Bridge, Ruins, Dragon City, etc.)).
It's a global reduction of cost, it's not necessary the hero with the skill visits the locations (locations on the maps or towns/castles) to get the bonus.

Basic:
+20% damage for level 1 creatures,
+10% damage for level 2 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 2 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 and levels 2, and Rogues and Nomads).

Advanced:
+40% damage for level 1 creatures,
+30% damage for level 2 creatures,
+20% damage for level 3 creatures,
+10% damage for level 4 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 4 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 to levels 4, and Rogues, Nomads, Medusas, Ghosts and Elementals).

Expert:
+60% damage for level 1 creatures,
+50% damage for level 2 creatures,
+40% damage for level 3 creatures,
+30% damage for level 4 creatures,
+20% damage for level 5 creatures,
+10% damage for level 6 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 6 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 to levels 6, and Rogues, Nomads, Medusas, Ghosts, Elementals, Genies and Red Dragons (Dragon City)).

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Guerilla: 3

**

Knight
Guerilla: 2

**

Necromancer
Guerilla: 3

**

Sorceress
Guerilla: 2

**

Warlock
Guerilla: 2

**

Wizard
Guerilla: 1


*****
*****


Mercenaries:

Increases the number of creature to recruit in all towns/castles creature generators (levels 1 to levels 3 only); it's a global creatures bonus, it's not necessary for the heroes with the skill to visit the towns/castles to get the bonus.

Adds supplementary creatures when recruiting in all creature generators on the adventure map, for each hero individually. The supplementary creatures potentially available accumulate over weeks as soon as the hero learn the skill (a sort of "bank" linked to each hero, and for each creature generator on the map), but are only available for each hero when he visits the location on the map (so, the number of creatures available are different for each hero depending his skill level (the "standard" creatures (generated every week) can be recruited as usual, and the number of supplementary creatures available are different for each hero)).

Ex:

With the skill at Expert level, Ranloo can recruit 1 supplementary Red Dragon if he goes to a distinctive Dragon City (1 supplementary Red Dragon is available in each Dragon City on the map for Ranloo).
Three weeks later, Ranloo can recruit 3 supplementary Red Dragons (for a total of 4 supplementary Red Dragons), if he goes to the same Dragon City.
If Ranloo recruits 3 of the supplementary Red Dragons, the number of supplementary creatures in his "bank" for this location is reduced by 3; so, he can only recruit 1 supplementary Red Dragon next time he want to recruit creatures in the same Dragon City.

Note:

When a hero with the Mercenaries skill recruits creatures in a generator on the map, the "standard" creatures (generated every week) are recruited first, then the supplementary creatures available due to the skill.

**

Basic:
+1 creature per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 1 creature generators in all towns/castles.

+2 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 1 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 1 and Rogues).
+1 supplementary creature per week available for recruitment to all level 2 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 2 and Nomads).


Advanced:
+2 creatures per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 1 creature generators in all towns/castles.
+1 creature per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 2 creature generators in all towns/castles.

+4 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 1 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 1 and Rogues).
+3 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 2 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 2 and Nomads).
+2 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 3 creature generators on the adventure map (Medusas and Ghosts).
+1 supplementary creature per week available for recruitment to all level 4 creature generators on the adventure map (Elementals).


Expert:
+3 creatures per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 1 creature generators in all towns/castles.
+2 creatures per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 2 creature generators in all towns/castles.
+1 creature per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 3 creature generators in all towns/castles.

+6 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 1 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 1 and Rogues (Wagon Camp)).
+5 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 2 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 2 and Nomads (Desert Tent)).
+4 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 3 creature generators on the adventure map (Medusas (Ruins) and Ghosts (Tumulus)).
+3 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 4 creature generators on the adventure map (Elementals (Autels)).
+2 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 5 creature generators on the adventure map (Trolls (Troll Bridge) and Liches (City of the Dead)).
+1 supplementary creature per week available for recruitment to all level 6 creature generators on the adventure map (Genies (Lamp) and Red Dragons (Dragon City)).

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Mercenaries: 2

**

Knight
Mercenaries: 3

**

Necromancer
Mercenaries: 2

**

Sorceress
Mercenaries: 3

**

Warlock
Mercenaries: 1

**

Wizard
Mercenaries: 2


*****
*****


Siege:

Gives bonuses to the hero during siege.

When the hero is the attacker:

Basic:
+1 to Attack during siege.
-10% damage from ballista and turrets.
gain of 250 gold when the hero is victorious.

Advanced:
+2 to Attack during siege.
-25% damage from ballista and turrets.
gain of 500 gold when the hero is victorious.

Expert:
+3 to Attack during siege.
-50% damage from ballista and turrets.
gain of 1000 gold when the hero is victorious.

**

When the hero is the defender:

Basic:
+1 to Defense during siege.
+20% damage for ballista and turrets.

Advanced:
+2 to Defense during siege.
+50% damage for ballista and turrets.

Expert:
+3 to Defense during siege.
+100% damage for ballista and turrets.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Siege: 2

**

Knight
Siege: 3

**

Necromancer
Siege: 1

**

Sorceress
Siege: 2

**

Warlock
Siege: 1

**

Wizard
Siege: 2


*****
*****


Terror:

Reduces the morale of the enemy troops.

Basic: -1 to Morale for enemy troops.
Advanced: -2 to Morale for enemy troops.
Expert: -3 to Morale for enemy troops.

**

All the morale modifiers are taken into account before the skill penalty is applied.

So, if the hero has:

Current Morale Modifiers:
Expert Leadership +3
Medal of Distinction +1
Taverne +1

Total Morale: +5
Final Morale: +3

With the enemy skill penalty:

Current Morale Modifiers:
Expert Leadership +3
Medal of Distinction +1
Taverne +1
Expert Terror (enemy skill) -3

Total Morale: +2
Final Morale: +2

It's not:

Hero Final Morale: +3
Expert Terror (enemy skill) -3

Final Morale: 0

**

So, the Morale artefacts and locations on the map (Morale modifiers) continue to be useful even if the hero has Expert Leadership.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Terror: 2

**

Knight
Terror: 1

**

Necromancer
Terror: 3

**

Sorceress
Terror: 1

**

Warlock
Terror: 2

**

Wizard
Terror: 1

**

I have mixed feelings on this one, need to be tested to see if it is not too powerful, or too frustrating for the player; it can also be fun.  Wink


*****
*****
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 06:23

Unknown Hero wrote:
Resistance: (Magic Resistance)

Reduces damage from all damage spells (own or enemy spells).

Basic: -10% damage from all damage spells.
Advanced: -25% damage from all damage spells.
Expert: -50% damage from all damage spells.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Resistance: 3

**

Knight
Resistance: 3

**

Necromancer
Resistance: 2

**

Sorceress
Resistance: 3

**

Warlock
Resistance: 1

**

Wizard
Resistance: 1

**

This skill is more specific to the "heroes of Might"; I set the reduction quite high (Expert: -50% damage), because the skill only affects spell damage and would not be too interesting with lower values, anyway need testing.

I actually support this. This can be a new faction skill for the new hero class, marked as "Cyborg". Yet, the second one is still a mystery (or it can be simply Adv. Resistance).

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 08:30

Are they supposed to be more "heroes of Might", with some sort of "mechanized" troops, so, why not the Defense skill, so they are protected against magic and physical damage, if that suits your goal?

Quote :
Defense:

Reduces the damage in combat.

Basic: -10% damage.
Advanced: -20% damage.
Expert: -30% damage.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 17:50

Simply because additional Secondary Skills are not needed for the game in general. In fact, the Defense skill you suggest simply duplicates the effect of the Primary Skill. Moreover, when you have a Defense skill, you will have to implement the Offense skill as well, and adjust the game code for the classes to obtain those skills. Given that we already have a selection of useless skills (like Eagle Eye) I am strongly against multiplying entities unnecessarily. It is a lot of work for a questionable profit. The Resistance skill is a good idea because it is only possessed as a creature ability by Golems, and it is atmospheric enough to implement for the new Cyborg class, given that combat magic in Heroes 2 is very strong at the earlier and middle stages of the game. I cannot say something about Defense and Offense because they are duplicating the primary skills in some way.

As you may know, the Secondary Skills actually were derived from Heroes 1 class bonuses (+1 morale for Knight, -50% terrain penalty for Barbarian, +50% move points on water for Sorceress and +1 square of hero viewing range for Warlock). It has become a part of the game atmosphere and unique trait of each class. The Wizard and the Necromancer actually got their profile Sec. Skills with a 100% logic: Wisdom and Necromancy. The Resistance skill for the Cyborg class is no less atmospheric because the Cyborg's design intends some mechanical parts and is not questionable in any way. I cannot say the same for the other suggested skills - they are not classical for Heroes 2 and they do not characterize the in-game classes well enough.

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-09, 07:11

I see what you mean with duplicating the primary skills, basically +30% to Attack is like +3 to Attack (when the Attack skill of the attacker is higher than the Defense skill of the defender).

For me, the secondary skills and the artefacts are a sort of minigame in which the player can balance and shape the heroes (or try to), so they can perform the tasks the player wants them to accomplish.

Per example, if a hero does not get the Logistics skill as hoped, the player can try to remedy this with artefacts who boost the hero movement on the map.

It's a great quality of Heroes 2; you do not get the skills you want, try to compensate with artefacts; you already have great artefacts in a specific area, the skill you wanted becomes less imperative and you can try to shape your hero differently.

The secondary skills and the artefacts act in a complementary way to mix the possibilities and strategies in the hero advancement, this allows a lot of diversities and adds to the replayability of the game.

Concerning the useless skills, yes some of them are not so good (or only depending the case), this is mainly due to the fact that the others are much better, more beneficial.

For Eagle Eye, the concept is great, it's just that it is not implemented in an effective way, the skill needs some changes to become attractive.

I proposed some tweaks for it in this topic:

http://heroes2.forumactif.com/t212p15-feature-requests-general-topic
(thirteenth reply, no possibility of direct link to the specific reply)

Quote :
Eagle Eye:

Your hero gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast against him in combat.

Basic: 20% 2nd level max.
Advanced: 30% 3rd level max.
Expert: 40% 4th level max.

Sometimes useful in the early game, skill becomes increasingly useless as the game progresses.

Need some tweaks:

Basic: 50% 2nd level max, your hero restores 1 magic point each time the opponent hero cast a spell during combat.
Advanced: 75% 3rd level max, your hero restores 2 magic points each time the opponent hero cast a spell during combat.
Expert: 100% 4th level max, your hero restores 3 magic points each time the opponent hero cast a spell during combat.

The Dispel Magic spell animation can be used on the hero when magic points are restored. And I think the hero should restore magic points above his max magic points (ex: 22/20).
The hero can use the learned spells during the current combat and he can learn several spells during the same combat (a window is displayed during combat each time the hero learn a spell and he can use the learned spells during current combat).

On the adventure map, the hero also gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast by opponents heroes located in his viewable area.
So your hero has Expert Eagle Eye. If a opponent hero is located in your hero viewable area and casts Town Gate spell, there are 100% change your hero learns Town Gate spell (a window is displayed at the beginning of turn to inform player).

Heroes 2 has herited some "lore" from his predecessor, it's nice and, I like it and I want it.

I see Heroes 2 primarily as a strategy game with some touch of RPG, but which is dedicated to the strategy.

So, if some new secondary skills can add to the strategy, even if they do not correspond totally to the "lore", it's good for the diversity of gaming experience.

The "Project Ironfist" has the potential to become "The Tool" to mod Heroes 2, and I think it's good to not limit the creativity of modders to reach this goal; and for this, everything already in the game should be moddable with maximum flexibility.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-09, 17:12

The intention is noble, but we all realize no one will play with such options Smile We need to raise more or less stable community at first.

You know, through years I've seen lots of these ideas for Heroes 3, like the skill decreasing the other hero's morale and some others, and in fact none of them came to life (although, there are some artifacts in Heroes 3 Horn of the Abyss which actually interact with the other hero) because project with courageous ideas didn't get much trust from the masses. But the HotA case was strongly based on the internal game classic feel. Heroes 2 didn't have artifacts or skills which actually interact with the other hero, except the Eagle Eye, which in fact is logically perfect (your hero looks how the other hero cast spells and remembers the gestures). The case of decreasing enemy's primary stats or morale or whatever is not very atmospheric and logical. The case of artifacts, however, is a little different - still we have the Sphere of Negation and can have some freedom in designing new artifacts.

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 07:04

Quote :
The intention is noble, but we all realize no one will play with such options Smile

At least me. Smile

Quote :
We need to raise more or less stable community at first.

The problem that can happen with this, is, you wait for the community to grow before adding new possibilities... ....and people wait for more possibilities before joining... Rolling Eyes  Cool
All new secondary skills do not need to be all included in the "standard Project Ironfist", it should just be possible to include them.

Project Ironsfist is more a "modding tool" than a "simple mod".
The future "mods" included in the "standard Project Ironfist" are just here to "demonstrate and promote" the possibilities, and for the programmer to have some fun at coding it, and for the modder to have some fun at modding it, and for the player to have some fun at playing it. Wink
The goal of a modding tool is to add new possibilities to the game. And being able to change what is already in game IS new possibilities.

Quote :
The case of decreasing enemy's primary stats or morale or whatever is not very atmospheric and logical.

Just like the Golem takes half damage from damage spells, so the Resistance skill seems "atmospheric and logical", the Bone Dragon reduces the enemy morale by 1, so the Terror skill also seems "atmospheric and logical".

One of the problems with this skill, is that it can be too powerfull against neutral stacks of creatures on the map. Now, if we can set the level of Morale (and even the level of Luck) for the creatures on the maps, it becomes less problematic.
Another problem would be that certain players find the skill too frustrating; they have a great army, but the skill makes sometimes their troops lose their action; in this case, they should be able to play the game without the skill. The skill needs testing in game anyway.

Damage, cost of creature, recruitment of creature, attack, chance, morale, etc., etc., etc., all of this is already in the game, it seems "atmospheric and logical" to be able to adjust and change all of these, and to add new ways to use them in a modding tool. Smile

Now, say I propose a skill that let the hero removes the trees and the hills on the map, or a skill that let the hero creates a town/castle on the map, these are completely game breaking (and not counting the programming time), this is no more Heroes of Might and Magic (even if certain players would certainly like it). :affraid:
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 07:15

Quote :
Just like the Golem takes half damage from damage spells, so the Resistance skill seems "atmospheric and logical", the Bone Dragon reduces the enemy morale by 1, so the Terror skill also seems "atmospheric and logical".

Not exactly. Don't mix the interaction between X and Y with interaction between X and X. It's simpler to describe the latter, and Heroes 2 is all about simplicity. I mean, you cannot simply describe how a hero could decrease the enemy troops morale with a... skill? Which skill would it be, an ability to sing like Ken Turner? Smile The Bone Dragon is in fact scary, so there is no problem with its creature ability. But for hero it's different. Like I said, there can very well be an artifact having the same effect, but for the secondary skill it's not atmospheric and not actually needed. It can exist, but it's not required for the general game because it can rather scare players off than attract them.

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 09:32

You see more the game with an "ambience" perspective, I see more the game with a "strategy" perspective. Nobody is right or false, it's just different points of view. Smile

If you want an explanation, the hero makes scary face, 2 seconds of terror:
http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=QCAtNZEWrl0#/60;62
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 10:14

I don't vie for "ambiance", I specialize in game design. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 14:06

Yes, each game has certain rules and traditions that it is better to keep, even in mods, because the people who play each game the most expect them. I agree that it is better for H2 mods to not have skills that reduce morale or stats, but that there is some room for artifacts to affect the other side.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 23:50

At some point, Unknown_Hero is right that the community sometimes forms around idea exchange. I've just seen all of these ideas on various WoG forums, and from my experience, tendencies to stick to the classic feel while making changes are more popular (as dictated by Heroes 3 HotA) than actual radical gameplay variation. They didn't come to life or the mods which actually implemented them are unplayable (or hard to look at because of placeholder graphics and/or bad design solutions) but the people actually contributed to the forums in general which I would like to see very much.

Still, it's good to have things to discuss. Perhaps Darmani also has a peculiar opinion on these matters. We should also realize that Price of Loyalty expansion (which was made by Cyberlore) have contributed a lot to the Heroes gameplay features which we now recognize as classics (Jails, Stables, Elemental Dwellings, several artifacts ideas, etc.).

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-14, 12:00

Orzie wrote:
I don't vie for "ambiance", I specialize in game design. Smile

I'll have some more thoughts to share, but I'd like to say that there is no game design without theme and ambiance. Even a game as simple as Tic Tac Toe is made more fun because, at a deep level, we connect to it as being about territorial control. The things that Orzie is talking about -- like it not making sense to have a skill that lowers enemy morale -- really are part of game design, and can't be dismissed as simply ambiance.

I used to have a similar attitude: that mechanics were the core of game design, and the theming and everything else was a distraction, or, at best, extra. My mind was blown early in my game design course, when the instructor, famed game designer and gamification pioneer Jesse Schell, demonstrated just how important the subconscious is to perception and fun.

He gives the same lecture every year. Here's a recording of the version from earlier this year: http://gamedesign.etc.cmu.edu/download/recordings/lecture_01-20/

The link is password-protected. Luckily, my old login from 2012 still works.

Username: 53-609
Password: iamagamedesigner
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2016-04-03, 04:24

@Darmani

Don't let your creativity be formatted by some obscure rules, don't be a robot, be different, let shine your creativity. Razz Laughing
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