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 [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills

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Unknown_Hero
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 06:08

Some new secondary skills for the new forum.  Smile

**

Adjustment for the secondary skills:

Quote :
Resistance: (Magic Resistance)
Reduces enemy Hero Spell Power during combat.

Basic: -1 to enemy Spell Power.
Advanced: -3 to enemy Spell Power.
Expert: -5 to enemy Spell Power.

Note: the enemy Hero Spell Power cannot be less than 1.

This skill is renamed as "Disruption".

Disruption:

Reduces enemy Hero Spell Power during combat.

Basic: -1 to enemy Spell Power.
Advanced: -3 to enemy Spell Power.
Expert: -5 to enemy Spell Power.

Note: the enemy Hero Spell Power cannot be less than 1.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types (adjustment).

Barbarian
Disruption: 1

**

Knight
Disruption: 1

**

Necromancer
Disruption: 3

**

Sorceress
Disruption: 2

**

Warlock
Disruption: 2

**

Wizard
Disruption: 2

**

This skill is more specific to the "heroes of Magic", as it's difficult to reduce the enemy hero's Spell Power.


*****
*****


Resistance: (Magic Resistance)

Reduces damage from all damage spells (own or enemy spells).

Basic: -10% damage from all damage spells.
Advanced: -25% damage from all damage spells.
Expert: -50% damage from all damage spells.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Resistance: 3

**

Knight
Resistance: 3

**

Necromancer
Resistance: 2

**

Sorceress
Resistance: 3

**

Warlock
Resistance: 1

**

Wizard
Resistance: 1

**

This skill is more specific to the "heroes of Might"; I set the reduction quite high (Expert: -50% damage), because the skill only affects spell damage and would not be too interesting with lower values, anyway need testing.


*****
*****


New secondary skills:

Guerilla:

Increases the damage during combat for the troops in the hero army, and reduces the cost of recruitment (with more heroes with the skill, the reduction of cost becomes greater (2 heroes with the skill give 10% reduction of cost)) in all creature generators (in town/castle generators, and in all creature generators on the map (City of the Dead, Troll Bridge, Ruins, Dragon City, etc.)).
It's a global reduction of cost, it's not necessary the hero with the skill visits the locations (locations on the maps or towns/castles) to get the bonus.

Basic:
+20% damage for level 1 creatures,
+10% damage for level 2 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 2 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 and levels 2, and Rogues and Nomads).

Advanced:
+40% damage for level 1 creatures,
+30% damage for level 2 creatures,
+20% damage for level 3 creatures,
+10% damage for level 4 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 4 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 to levels 4, and Rogues, Nomads, Medusas, Ghosts and Elementals).

Expert:
+60% damage for level 1 creatures,
+50% damage for level 2 creatures,
+40% damage for level 3 creatures,
+30% damage for level 4 creatures,
+20% damage for level 5 creatures,
+10% damage for level 6 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 6 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 to levels 6, and Rogues, Nomads, Medusas, Ghosts, Elementals, Genies and Red Dragons (Dragon City)).

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Guerilla: 3

**

Knight
Guerilla: 2

**

Necromancer
Guerilla: 3

**

Sorceress
Guerilla: 2

**

Warlock
Guerilla: 2

**

Wizard
Guerilla: 1


*****
*****


Mercenaries:

Increases the number of creature to recruit in all towns/castles creature generators (levels 1 to levels 3 only); it's a global creatures bonus, it's not necessary for the heroes with the skill to visit the towns/castles to get the bonus.

Adds supplementary creatures when recruiting in all creature generators on the adventure map, for each hero individually. The supplementary creatures potentially available accumulate over weeks as soon as the hero learn the skill (a sort of "bank" linked to each hero, and for each creature generator on the map), but are only available for each hero when he visits the location on the map (so, the number of creatures available are different for each hero depending his skill level (the "standard" creatures (generated every week) can be recruited as usual, and the number of supplementary creatures available are different for each hero)).

Ex:

With the skill at Expert level, Ranloo can recruit 1 supplementary Red Dragon if he goes to a distinctive Dragon City (1 supplementary Red Dragon is available in each Dragon City on the map for Ranloo).
Three weeks later, Ranloo can recruit 3 supplementary Red Dragons (for a total of 4 supplementary Red Dragons), if he goes to the same Dragon City.
If Ranloo recruits 3 of the supplementary Red Dragons, the number of supplementary creatures in his "bank" for this location is reduced by 3; so, he can only recruit 1 supplementary Red Dragon next time he want to recruit creatures in the same Dragon City.

Note:

When a hero with the Mercenaries skill recruits creatures in a generator on the map, the "standard" creatures (generated every week) are recruited first, then the supplementary creatures available due to the skill.

**

Basic:
+1 creature per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 1 creature generators in all towns/castles.

+2 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 1 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 1 and Rogues).
+1 supplementary creature per week available for recruitment to all level 2 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 2 and Nomads).


Advanced:
+2 creatures per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 1 creature generators in all towns/castles.
+1 creature per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 2 creature generators in all towns/castles.

+4 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 1 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 1 and Rogues).
+3 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 2 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 2 and Nomads).
+2 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 3 creature generators on the adventure map (Medusas and Ghosts).
+1 supplementary creature per week available for recruitment to all level 4 creature generators on the adventure map (Elementals).


Expert:
+3 creatures per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 1 creature generators in all towns/castles.
+2 creatures per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 2 creature generators in all towns/castles.
+1 creature per week (cumulative for each hero with the skill) to all level 3 creature generators in all towns/castles.

+6 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 1 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 1 and Rogues (Wagon Camp)).
+5 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 2 creature generators on the adventure map (all levels 2 and Nomads (Desert Tent)).
+4 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 3 creature generators on the adventure map (Medusas (Ruins) and Ghosts (Tumulus)).
+3 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 4 creature generators on the adventure map (Elementals (Autels)).
+2 supplementary creatures per week available for recruitment to all level 5 creature generators on the adventure map (Trolls (Troll Bridge) and Liches (City of the Dead)).
+1 supplementary creature per week available for recruitment to all level 6 creature generators on the adventure map (Genies (Lamp) and Red Dragons (Dragon City)).

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Mercenaries: 2

**

Knight
Mercenaries: 3

**

Necromancer
Mercenaries: 2

**

Sorceress
Mercenaries: 3

**

Warlock
Mercenaries: 1

**

Wizard
Mercenaries: 2


*****
*****


Siege:

Gives bonuses to the hero during siege.

When the hero is the attacker:

Basic:
+1 to Attack during siege.
-10% damage from ballista and turrets.
gain of 250 gold when the hero is victorious.

Advanced:
+2 to Attack during siege.
-25% damage from ballista and turrets.
gain of 500 gold when the hero is victorious.

Expert:
+3 to Attack during siege.
-50% damage from ballista and turrets.
gain of 1000 gold when the hero is victorious.

**

When the hero is the defender:

Basic:
+1 to Defense during siege.
+20% damage for ballista and turrets.

Advanced:
+2 to Defense during siege.
+50% damage for ballista and turrets.

Expert:
+3 to Defense during siege.
+100% damage for ballista and turrets.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Siege: 2

**

Knight
Siege: 3

**

Necromancer
Siege: 1

**

Sorceress
Siege: 2

**

Warlock
Siege: 1

**

Wizard
Siege: 2


*****
*****


Terror:

Reduces the morale of the enemy troops.

Basic: -1 to Morale for enemy troops.
Advanced: -2 to Morale for enemy troops.
Expert: -3 to Morale for enemy troops.

**

All the morale modifiers are taken into account before the skill penalty is applied.

So, if the hero has:

Current Morale Modifiers:
Expert Leadership +3
Medal of Distinction +1
Taverne +1

Total Morale: +5
Final Morale: +3

With the enemy skill penalty:

Current Morale Modifiers:
Expert Leadership +3
Medal of Distinction +1
Taverne +1
Expert Terror (enemy skill) -3

Total Morale: +2
Final Morale: +2

It's not:

Hero Final Morale: +3
Expert Terror (enemy skill) -3

Final Morale: 0

**

So, the Morale artefacts and locations on the map (Morale modifiers) continue to be useful even if the hero has Expert Leadership.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Terror: 2

**

Knight
Terror: 1

**

Necromancer
Terror: 3

**

Sorceress
Terror: 1

**

Warlock
Terror: 2

**

Wizard
Terror: 1

**

I have mixed feelings on this one, need to be tested to see if it is not too powerful, or too frustrating for the player; it can also be fun.  Wink


*****
*****
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 06:23

Unknown Hero wrote:
Resistance: (Magic Resistance)

Reduces damage from all damage spells (own or enemy spells).

Basic: -10% damage from all damage spells.
Advanced: -25% damage from all damage spells.
Expert: -50% damage from all damage spells.

**

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian
Resistance: 3

**

Knight
Resistance: 3

**

Necromancer
Resistance: 2

**

Sorceress
Resistance: 3

**

Warlock
Resistance: 1

**

Wizard
Resistance: 1

**

This skill is more specific to the "heroes of Might"; I set the reduction quite high (Expert: -50% damage), because the skill only affects spell damage and would not be too interesting with lower values, anyway need testing.

I actually support this. This can be a new faction skill for the new hero class, marked as "Cyborg". Yet, the second one is still a mystery (or it can be simply Adv. Resistance).

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 08:30

Are they supposed to be more "heroes of Might", with some sort of "mechanized" troops, so, why not the Defense skill, so they are protected against magic and physical damage, if that suits your goal?

Quote :
Defense:

Reduces the damage in combat.

Basic: -10% damage.
Advanced: -20% damage.
Expert: -30% damage.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-08, 17:50

Simply because additional Secondary Skills are not needed for the game in general. In fact, the Defense skill you suggest simply duplicates the effect of the Primary Skill. Moreover, when you have a Defense skill, you will have to implement the Offense skill as well, and adjust the game code for the classes to obtain those skills. Given that we already have a selection of useless skills (like Eagle Eye) I am strongly against multiplying entities unnecessarily. It is a lot of work for a questionable profit. The Resistance skill is a good idea because it is only possessed as a creature ability by Golems, and it is atmospheric enough to implement for the new Cyborg class, given that combat magic in Heroes 2 is very strong at the earlier and middle stages of the game. I cannot say something about Defense and Offense because they are duplicating the primary skills in some way.

As you may know, the Secondary Skills actually were derived from Heroes 1 class bonuses (+1 morale for Knight, -50% terrain penalty for Barbarian, +50% move points on water for Sorceress and +1 square of hero viewing range for Warlock). It has become a part of the game atmosphere and unique trait of each class. The Wizard and the Necromancer actually got their profile Sec. Skills with a 100% logic: Wisdom and Necromancy. The Resistance skill for the Cyborg class is no less atmospheric because the Cyborg's design intends some mechanical parts and is not questionable in any way. I cannot say the same for the other suggested skills - they are not classical for Heroes 2 and they do not characterize the in-game classes well enough.

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-09, 07:11

I see what you mean with duplicating the primary skills, basically +30% to Attack is like +3 to Attack (when the Attack skill of the attacker is higher than the Defense skill of the defender).

For me, the secondary skills and the artefacts are a sort of minigame in which the player can balance and shape the heroes (or try to), so they can perform the tasks the player wants them to accomplish.

Per example, if a hero does not get the Logistics skill as hoped, the player can try to remedy this with artefacts who boost the hero movement on the map.

It's a great quality of Heroes 2; you do not get the skills you want, try to compensate with artefacts; you already have great artefacts in a specific area, the skill you wanted becomes less imperative and you can try to shape your hero differently.

The secondary skills and the artefacts act in a complementary way to mix the possibilities and strategies in the hero advancement, this allows a lot of diversities and adds to the replayability of the game.

Concerning the useless skills, yes some of them are not so good (or only depending the case), this is mainly due to the fact that the others are much better, more beneficial.

For Eagle Eye, the concept is great, it's just that it is not implemented in an effective way, the skill needs some changes to become attractive.

I proposed some tweaks for it in this topic:

http://heroes2.forumactif.com/t212p15-feature-requests-general-topic
(thirteenth reply, no possibility of direct link to the specific reply)

Quote :
Eagle Eye:

Your hero gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast against him in combat.

Basic: 20% 2nd level max.
Advanced: 30% 3rd level max.
Expert: 40% 4th level max.

Sometimes useful in the early game, skill becomes increasingly useless as the game progresses.

Need some tweaks:

Basic: 50% 2nd level max, your hero restores 1 magic point each time the opponent hero cast a spell during combat.
Advanced: 75% 3rd level max, your hero restores 2 magic points each time the opponent hero cast a spell during combat.
Expert: 100% 4th level max, your hero restores 3 magic points each time the opponent hero cast a spell during combat.

The Dispel Magic spell animation can be used on the hero when magic points are restored. And I think the hero should restore magic points above his max magic points (ex: 22/20).
The hero can use the learned spells during the current combat and he can learn several spells during the same combat (a window is displayed during combat each time the hero learn a spell and he can use the learned spells during current combat).

On the adventure map, the hero also gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast by opponents heroes located in his viewable area.
So your hero has Expert Eagle Eye. If a opponent hero is located in your hero viewable area and casts Town Gate spell, there are 100% change your hero learns Town Gate spell (a window is displayed at the beginning of turn to inform player).

Heroes 2 has herited some "lore" from his predecessor, it's nice and, I like it and I want it.

I see Heroes 2 primarily as a strategy game with some touch of RPG, but which is dedicated to the strategy.

So, if some new secondary skills can add to the strategy, even if they do not correspond totally to the "lore", it's good for the diversity of gaming experience.

The "Project Ironfist" has the potential to become "The Tool" to mod Heroes 2, and I think it's good to not limit the creativity of modders to reach this goal; and for this, everything already in the game should be moddable with maximum flexibility.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-09, 17:12

The intention is noble, but we all realize no one will play with such options Smile We need to raise more or less stable community at first.

You know, through years I've seen lots of these ideas for Heroes 3, like the skill decreasing the other hero's morale and some others, and in fact none of them came to life (although, there are some artifacts in Heroes 3 Horn of the Abyss which actually interact with the other hero) because project with courageous ideas didn't get much trust from the masses. But the HotA case was strongly based on the internal game classic feel. Heroes 2 didn't have artifacts or skills which actually interact with the other hero, except the Eagle Eye, which in fact is logically perfect (your hero looks how the other hero cast spells and remembers the gestures). The case of decreasing enemy's primary stats or morale or whatever is not very atmospheric and logical. The case of artifacts, however, is a little different - still we have the Sphere of Negation and can have some freedom in designing new artifacts.

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 07:04

Quote :
The intention is noble, but we all realize no one will play with such options Smile

At least me. Smile

Quote :
We need to raise more or less stable community at first.

The problem that can happen with this, is, you wait for the community to grow before adding new possibilities... ....and people wait for more possibilities before joining... Rolling Eyes  Cool
All new secondary skills do not need to be all included in the "standard Project Ironfist", it should just be possible to include them.

Project Ironsfist is more a "modding tool" than a "simple mod".
The future "mods" included in the "standard Project Ironfist" are just here to "demonstrate and promote" the possibilities, and for the programmer to have some fun at coding it, and for the modder to have some fun at modding it, and for the player to have some fun at playing it. Wink
The goal of a modding tool is to add new possibilities to the game. And being able to change what is already in game IS new possibilities.

Quote :
The case of decreasing enemy's primary stats or morale or whatever is not very atmospheric and logical.

Just like the Golem takes half damage from damage spells, so the Resistance skill seems "atmospheric and logical", the Bone Dragon reduces the enemy morale by 1, so the Terror skill also seems "atmospheric and logical".

One of the problems with this skill, is that it can be too powerfull against neutral stacks of creatures on the map. Now, if we can set the level of Morale (and even the level of Luck) for the creatures on the maps, it becomes less problematic.
Another problem would be that certain players find the skill too frustrating; they have a great army, but the skill makes sometimes their troops lose their action; in this case, they should be able to play the game without the skill. The skill needs testing in game anyway.

Damage, cost of creature, recruitment of creature, attack, chance, morale, etc., etc., etc., all of this is already in the game, it seems "atmospheric and logical" to be able to adjust and change all of these, and to add new ways to use them in a modding tool. Smile

Now, say I propose a skill that let the hero removes the trees and the hills on the map, or a skill that let the hero creates a town/castle on the map, these are completely game breaking (and not counting the programming time), this is no more Heroes of Might and Magic (even if certain players would certainly like it). :affraid:
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 07:15

Quote :
Just like the Golem takes half damage from damage spells, so the Resistance skill seems "atmospheric and logical", the Bone Dragon reduces the enemy morale by 1, so the Terror skill also seems "atmospheric and logical".

Not exactly. Don't mix the interaction between X and Y with interaction between X and X. It's simpler to describe the latter, and Heroes 2 is all about simplicity. I mean, you cannot simply describe how a hero could decrease the enemy troops morale with a... skill? Which skill would it be, an ability to sing like Ken Turner? Smile The Bone Dragon is in fact scary, so there is no problem with its creature ability. But for hero it's different. Like I said, there can very well be an artifact having the same effect, but for the secondary skill it's not atmospheric and not actually needed. It can exist, but it's not required for the general game because it can rather scare players off than attract them.

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 09:32

You see more the game with an "ambience" perspective, I see more the game with a "strategy" perspective. Nobody is right or false, it's just different points of view. Smile

If you want an explanation, the hero makes scary face, 2 seconds of terror:
http://www.infinitelooper.com/?v=QCAtNZEWrl0#/60;62
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 10:14

I don't vie for "ambiance", I specialize in game design. Smile

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 14:06

Yes, each game has certain rules and traditions that it is better to keep, even in mods, because the people who play each game the most expect them. I agree that it is better for H2 mods to not have skills that reduce morale or stats, but that there is some room for artifacts to affect the other side.
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-10, 23:50

At some point, Unknown_Hero is right that the community sometimes forms around idea exchange. I've just seen all of these ideas on various WoG forums, and from my experience, tendencies to stick to the classic feel while making changes are more popular (as dictated by Heroes 3 HotA) than actual radical gameplay variation. They didn't come to life or the mods which actually implemented them are unplayable (or hard to look at because of placeholder graphics and/or bad design solutions) but the people actually contributed to the forums in general which I would like to see very much.

Still, it's good to have things to discuss. Perhaps Darmani also has a peculiar opinion on these matters. We should also realize that Price of Loyalty expansion (which was made by Cyberlore) have contributed a lot to the Heroes gameplay features which we now recognize as classics (Jails, Stables, Elemental Dwellings, several artifacts ideas, etc.).

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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2015-09-14, 12:00

Orzie wrote:
I don't vie for "ambiance", I specialize in game design. Smile

I'll have some more thoughts to share, but I'd like to say that there is no game design without theme and ambiance. Even a game as simple as Tic Tac Toe is made more fun because, at a deep level, we connect to it as being about territorial control. The things that Orzie is talking about -- like it not making sense to have a skill that lowers enemy morale -- really are part of game design, and can't be dismissed as simply ambiance.

I used to have a similar attitude: that mechanics were the core of game design, and the theming and everything else was a distraction, or, at best, extra. My mind was blown early in my game design course, when the instructor, famed game designer and gamification pioneer Jesse Schell, demonstrated just how important the subconscious is to perception and fun.

He gives the same lecture every year. Here's a recording of the version from earlier this year: http://gamedesign.etc.cmu.edu/download/recordings/lecture_01-20/

The link is password-protected. Luckily, my old login from 2012 still works.

Username: 53-609
Password: iamagamedesigner
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PostSubject: Re: [Feature requests] New Secondary Skills   2016-04-03, 04:24

@Darmani

Don't let your creativity be formatted by some obscure rules, don't be a robot, be different, let shine your creativity. Razz Laughing
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