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 Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW

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Ragoon
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-07, 13:13

Dirty and quick redesign for MANTIS before bed (will fix and clean it next time using your advices from below Razz )

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-08, 01:16

The claws are definitely better in your variant. However, I don't quite understand why you reduced back legs - not only it started looking less closer to real life mantis, but also it lost volume and mass, now having an empty space behind the back. Still, the main problem of the Mantis was lack of filled space under the body (contrasting with the Toad which has its belly on the ground and thus looking more bulky like Heroes 2 creatures usually do).

I'm not strongly against the leg change, but I suggest making the back ones at least longer in length so they won't be as infantile.

The front legs change seems to be more or less legit, but probably needs some more improvement.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-08, 02:03

Toad is too bulky to begin with. I dont think we should keep it as it is only because it was original concept, because I dont think it was it's final design.

Shouldn't it look like real life mantis?
I can try to do something with wings, but I'm against strong back legs, it looked like a grasshopper before, while mantises are not capable of strict jumping (they help themselves with wings). Spike on back legs or abdomen should help a little.
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-08, 02:19

Try also lowering/bending the torso more so it fills the bottom of the image a little better.

The Toad is for sure too bulky and will be at least decreased in size to fit more to 4th level and look in harmony with the neighbouring Lizardman.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-09, 08:20

Still think a werewolf or a wisp is a better idea. Otherwise, the Witch will have giant wasp, giant frog and giant mantis. Meh... Even H3 gorgons are better at this point IMHO.

Werewolf can be really cool, cause it's both fresh and reminiscent of the gnoll. I still think it's the best pick and I personally really liked Ragoon's first draft. It really fit well with the Evil Tree as well, with the whole Halloween theme... Witches, werewolves and spooky trees go well together.
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-09, 14:47

NikitaTheTanner wrote:
Still think a werewolf or a wisp is a better idea. Otherwise, the Witch will have giant wasp, giant frog and giant mantis
Think about it as a feature of this specific faction. No, Gorgons aren't any better.

Quote :
Werewolf can be really cool, cause it's both fresh and reminiscent of the gnoll. I still think it's the best pick and I personally really liked Ragoon's first draft. It really fit well with the Evil Tree as well, with the whole Halloween theme... Witches, werewolves and spooky trees go well together.
Werewolf is absolutely not fresh due to the large amount of wolves already. Moreover, it's not characteristic to the swamp concept. The Halloween theme was not considered from the very start, I would rearrange half of the lineup otherwise, and the very concept of the Witch hero would be drastically different. Yes, I remember your suggestions from time to time and I see that all of them have certain vision, but it differs from mine. We've got enough Halloween for the Necromancer.

Also, the Toad doesn't fit to level 5 completely. Thus, by suggesting the replacement of 1 creature you spawn more problems than you do solve. It's either using giant animal fillers or redesigning the lineup completely. I'm for the first option - if any faction would allow this, only the swamp-themed and beast-like wild Witch faction could.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-09, 23:52

Today I have treeant moving, idle and attack animations as well as fixed move for beholder for you:



or







Next one that will come will be treeant death (which seems hard to make atm), lizardman animations and another fixes for beholder (x3 attacks are not connecting).


TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-10, 00:12

Great as always. The difference between two idle animations is not very noticeable.
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-10, 00:53

Looking pretty nice. I'm for the first variant of the idle animation, where the yellow lines don't go repeatedly. I would also suggest to remove the sparks from the crown, in my opinion it distracts a little. However, the movement of the leaves can be made even more dynamic.

I'm not pretty sure if we need such complex Idle animation (it's much more complex than H3 one for the Dendroid, so...), but we can leave it for now. Ideally, the tree should just have had moving leaves and probably shaking its body a little.

Concerning the Attack animation - I've never thought about this kind of attack, but in general I seem to approve this. I would only suggest to make the "buried hands" to be more massive, or to bury them a little deeper as an option.

Also, there is a small moment which draws too much attention: the right arm of the tree during the last frames of Attack animation. The tree remains in the same pose, but a section of the arm (where humans have biceps) keeps moving backward for a pixel. This should be either fixed so the arm doesn't move, or somehow manipulated so it doesn't draw so much attention while the rest of the body is absolutely static. I'm for the first option.

Also, I think the outline of the right arm/shoulder shouldn't disappear during the movement. It's obviously composed of separated elements currently.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-10, 05:59

I like the Treant over all. I prefer the first animation to the 2nd option. It's more alive and it looks cooler to me overall. Although it certainly is a more complex idle animation than many. Perhaps if it only flashed every so often, in the same way that the idle troops tend to look over at the screen or shuffle about once in a while, instead of a continuous stream of energy like in the animation.

If you did decide to change the idle animation, but still wish to keep the moving energy, it could potentially be made part of his attack pattern.
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-10, 10:03

Actually, we can add both idle animations Razz My method isn't perfect, but the most important thing is that it's working Very Happy

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-10, 10:46

Hey, new to the forum. First of all just wanted to congratulate you guys on the wonderful work you're doing! I hope I can contribute as well at some point, maybe through pixel art and design.

Loving the stuff you've done Ragoon! I had a few comments.

Harpy - looks like a good fit in the barbarian lineup, with or without knives.
Medusa - great work, like the colours. Does she have a rattle tail?
Treant - love the look, but I would add details to the foliage and maybe some vines hanging down from it, so it would look like a tree from the swamp. I'm torn with the idle animation: looks cool and it makes the treant look more intimidating, rather than "sylvan", but maybe tone it down to a darker colour and don't let the energy run all the way to the top?
Wyvern - I like it, though I preferred the first version of the head so it stood apart more from dragons. Also, I would tweak the tail when it's flying, now it kinda looks like it's dragging along. Maybe curve it a bit upward or add a spike to the end?
Mantis - love where it's going, though not quite there yet

I wasn't a fan of the acolyte, the beholder or the wasp at first, but they look great animated. Especially the acolyte! I liked the werewolf, but I don't think it fits with the witch lineup. Maybe a neutral creature?
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-10, 19:51

Welcome to the forum AkuAkuIslands!

Contact me through PM, I would like to see what kind of things you are capable of doing, maybe it could help us Smile Depends on the skill
Send me your fb profile link preferably

About units:
Harpy - thanks, it took a few months and 10+ propositions to make it to actual design
Medusa - No, she doesn't, changed only colors and added bow and quiver. She was going to have one, but it didn't look good
Treeant - Feel free to post your propositions, even if only drafts. It would help to visualize what do you have in mind and would also help in discussion about your idea!
Wyvern - Majority of users didn't liked old head and I've got new design from our old mate Kivo, who is now practicing to become professionalist after his art school
About the tail, I've tried to get it to work for several hours, I'm out of ideas for the beta and it is taking too much time while other creatures dont have animations at all
Mantis - Thanks, will fix it when inspiration comes! Razz

Also thanks about words for acolyte and other creatures Smile And yeah, beholder was my least favourite in design at first so I've fixed it but only a little bit and it works better now
Werewolf might be neutral, but only when we'll have nothing else to be done

Thanks!


About treeant output - I'll change idle animation, so dont bother yet Uhm.
Will make it pop less while mantaining energy flow, erasing it from the leaves etc. Will also fix attack animation applying Orzie's recommendations.
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-10, 20:21

Please also try to make the roots less spiky when they come out of the ground. Probably, there should be more than 1 stick coming from the ground; the Treant's ability is similar to H3 Dendroids one so multiple roots might look better in this case.

Also, be aware that this animation will look out of place during the Attack Up and Attack Down, so at least the position of the roots should be changed accordingly even if we don't draw special animation of the body for v0.8.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-12, 01:59

Ragoon wrote:



First thought:

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 02:08

I guess that's all for treeant, although I know that animations like attack up/down and death will need fixing later:

IDLE:
WALK:
ATTACK:
GETTING HIT:
DEATH:




//EDIT
PS Updated animations thread with treeant animations, new animations for some older creatures and some static images
http://heroes2.forumactif.com/t448-h3sw-creature-animations


Last edited by Ragoon on 2017-02-13, 02:39; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 02:12

Fantastic job, now the treant is very close to the "perfect" definition. I cannot decide between the Idle animations, but surely the second Death with falling leaves is very nice. I also like how you managed to design the attacking roots, so it's all for good.

I'd only suggest to try removing 1 frame from that Death animation to make it a little less smooth. That still might look worse than the current one, so we'll need to check.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 08:26

Another update on MANTIS, still not there yet, just more polished.
I was really wondering if it really should be flying unit? I mean the faction already have wasps, toads and wyverns which are all able to "fly"


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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 09:16

Ragoon wrote:

I was really wondering if it really should be flying unit? I mean the faction already have wasps, toads and wyverns which are all able to "fly"

Agreed. It is a bit too much with four flying creatures in a lineup.
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 11:06

So, remake toads into walking creatures.
"- Who is cleverer, a frog or a toad?
- A toad, of course. A frog jumps while a toad walks. That's why."
Walking spitting shooter, fat and relatively slow.

Spoiler:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 11:24

@BoseDrache Yes, definitely!



Eventually, she can make a small jumps:

Spoiler:
 

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 16:26

Sir Albe wrote:
Ragoon wrote:

I was really wondering if it really should be flying unit? I mean the faction already have wasps, toads and wyverns which are all able to "fly"

Agreed. It is a bit too much with four flying creatures in a lineup.

For some reason however no one has objections against 3 shooters for the Wizard or no flyers for the Knight.
I insist on making the Toad a flyer for v0.8 beta. Not only it will be easier that way, but also we will be able to see if the gameplay is that inappropriate.

I also must remind you all the reason why Heroes 3 lineup basics were so criticized by a vast number of players. It's the lack of diversity. The playing style of the Witch should differ from Warlock. Having flying creatures able to cast various curses like Weakness and Poison, also able to flee when necessary will feel as a disaster and pretty atmospheric. The flyers can be made not so tanky so the hit-n-run annoying strategy would feel awesomely fitting for a faction having insects and swamp creatures.

Moreover, the Toad is a unique creature which have a certain movement pattern which I wouldn't like to discard so easily. If any creature would have this movement, it's the Toad.

I of course know that toads walk while frogs jump, but Frog is not an intimidating name for a fairy tale.

P.S. in future however (v0.9) I can see the Toad walking, we'll just need to redesign its animation completely.
P.P.S. need some time to think about the issue. Still, the Toad was a flyer back in the times where the Gorgon was present.
Ragoon wrote:
Another update on MANTIS, still not there yet, just more polished.



The geometry is pretty nice already. Now the only fixes required are the color transitions, especially for the wings. Concerning the Toad fixes - I'll take it personally when all other creatures of the lineup will be finished. I only know that it should be colored in a variation of green, but fit to the Lizardman and don't replicate it at the same time.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 20:38

Okay, Orzie:

First of all, I agree with Uhm and BoseDrache and I think that either toad or a mantis should have normal moving pattern.

Orzie wrote:
For some reason however no one has objections against 3 shooters for the Wizard or no flyers for the Knight.
Because it fits their lore, wizards are often "casters" and "shooters" and it already worked in H2, while it didn't feel campy, like sitting on their ass and destroying the oponnent.
As for the knight, you can see that it consist of more or less fast units while every other faction has this "slow" one which in one way compensates for it and like you said already, it is really hard to fit something else there, especially flyier, that's why we have chosen another shooter, am I right?


Orzie wrote:
Heroes 3 lineup basics were so criticized by a vast number of players. It's the lack of diversity.
Never heard anything like this, but I wasn't on any community before so maybe that's the reason.


Orzie wrote:
The playing style of the Witch should differ from Warlock. Having flying creatures able to cast various curses like Weakness and Poison, also able to flee when necessary will feel as a disaster and pretty atmospheric. The flyers can be made not so tanky so the hit-n-run annoying strategy would feel awesomely fitting for a faction having insects and swamp creatures.
But warlock is already aggresive, why do you insist on putting even more aggresive faction to the game while it was thought out and we decided about defensive nature of the town? I feel that this is a step in the wrong direction, but we'll see I guess. Just dont make it a glass-cannon faction...


Orzie wrote:
Toad is a unique creature which have a certain movement pattern which I wouldn't like to discard so easily. If any creature would have this movement, it's the Toad.
Which also looks wrong imo. Maybe if during it's "flight" it would have like 5-6 or even 7-8 frames of jumping animation which would play just a single time and not just "superman" through, maybe then it would look ok, but not in this moment. And no one said that any creature should have it's pattern. So I think that if it is going to stay like it is, it would require a lot of programming work to get it right.


Orzie wrote:
toads walk while frogs jump, but Frog is not an intimidating name for a fairy tale.
Just another reason against the idea. Maybe putting two toads with different moving patterns and comparing them should be the right way to go?


Orzie wrote:
I only know that it should be colored in a variation of green, but fit to the Lizardman and don't replicate it at the same time.
Maybe darker green like tribal clothing with turquoise dots/horns on it (like it has atm)? It would fit both lizardmen and other creatures. You can leave yellow belly as it is or darken it a little too. And if I was the one for the job, I would change it's head geometry or at least eyes and mouth. Smaller belly too.
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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-13, 20:53

Quote :
Just another reason against the idea. Maybe putting two toads with different moving patterns and comparing them should be the right way to go?
That should work. Yet, before animating it its static form must be complete.
The Toad should crawl if we speak about the possible groundwalking animation, not jumping to short distances. It should be more tanky this way, too. A full substitute of the H3 Basilisk, that is. Not a perfect option but this lineup requires that. It's still more harmonic than a groundwalking Mantis, you know.

What I also thought of is a possible upgrade having the jumping ability, but there are lots of reasons to leave the Toad un-upgradeable (if we put down this restriction, there will be too many questions why the Boar, the Mantis, the Wolf and other(s) are un-upgradeable, while if they all are upgraded this would result in a total mess).

Quote :
Maybe darker green like tribal clothing with turquoise dots/horns on it (like it has atm)? It would fit both lizardmen and other creatures. You can leave yellow belly as it is or darken it a little too. And if I was the one for the job, I would change it's head geometry or at least eyes and mouth. Smaller belly too.
Same thoughts. The belly needs recoloring, its yellow is not relative to the yellow presented in other creatures.
You can throw your suggestions for the face, but as for me the face is the least problematic here and fixed color transitions would be enough.

Quote :
So I think that if it is going to stay like it is, it would require a lot of programming work to get it right.
That's not true, for we already have the Toad animation working just fine (I didn't fix the animation speed for that video specifically, but that's pretty easy to do).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JlwAFgG7o_o

Quote :
As for the knight, you can see that it consist of more or less fast units while every other faction has this "slow" one which in one way compensates for it and like you said already, it is really hard to fit something else there, especially flyier, that's why we have chosen another shooter, am I right?
That's why 4 flyers are not that bad for a faction, it could be taken as another exception. I'm not entirely against the groundwalking Toad however, it won't cause any problems with the faction exterior like some recent stupid suggestions from a bad-mannered user on HC.

The Toad should have the Disease ability if put down to the ground, also having the changed Attack animation to a more biting-styled one probably. On the other hand, it won't look good when a Toad would bite a Dragon.

Quote :
But warlock is already aggresive, why do you insist on putting even more aggresive faction to the game while it was thought out and we decided about defensive nature of the town? I feel that this is a step in the wrong direction, but we'll see I guess. Just dont make it a glass-cannon faction...
The "aggresiveness" of a faction is easily nerfed by the creature stats if you mean that flyers are designed for attack specifically.

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PostSubject: Re: Ragoon's Graphics For HoMM3SW   2017-02-14, 00:31

Yay! Mantis looks awesome! It's one of my favourites, even if some people don't seem to warm up to it. To me it feels fresh and unexpected, but fits in really well with the game and the faction.

I just read through the discussion on HC. Wow... I applaude you guys even more for still sticking to this project. The discussion seems to be running in vicious cycles where people dig up problems that have already been solved and then lash out when things don't go their way. The dogs bark, but the caravan goes on I hope.
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