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 [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills

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Unknown_Hero
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PostSubject: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-04-19, 05:52

Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills.

*

Secondary Skills tweaks.

*

Diplomacy: (modified version)

With Diplomacy skill army camps will sometimes offer to join your army.
Percentage shown is the percentage of monsters in the stack.

Basic: 25% will join, cost 100%.
Advanced: 50% will join, cost 100%.
Expert: 100% will join, cost 100%.

Tweaks:

Basic: 100% will join, cost 100%, and reduces the cost of surrender to 80% of the total cost of your army.
Advanced: 100% will join, cost 75%, and reduces the cost of surrender to 60% of the total cost of your army.
Expert: 100% will join, cost 50%, and reduces the cost of surrender to 40% of the total cost of your army.

So all the creatures will always join your army but you pay different cost for each Diplomacy level, and you get a cost reduction when the hero surrenders.

*

Eagle Eye: (modified version)

Your hero gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast against him in combat.

Basic: 20% chance, 2nd level max.
Advanced: 30% chance, 3rd level max.
Expert: 40% chance, 4th level max.

Tweaks:

Your hero gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast against him in combat, and restores spell points each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.

Basic: 50% chance, 2nd level max, your hero restores 1 spell point multiplied by the level of the spell the opponent hero casts, each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.
Advanced: 75% chance, 3rd level max, your hero restores 2 spell points multiplied by the level of the spell the opponent hero casts, each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.
Expert: 100% chance, 4th level max, your hero restores 3 spell points multiplied by the level of the spell the opponent hero casts, each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.

The Dispel Magic spell animation can be used on the hero when spell points are restored.
The hero can restore spell points above his max spell points (ex: 22/20).
The hero can use the learned spells during the current combat and he can learn several spells during the same combat (a window is displayed during combat each time the hero learn a spell and he can use the learned spells during current combat).

On the adventure map, the hero also gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast by opponents heroes located in his viewable area.
So your hero has Expert Eagle Eye. If a opponent hero is located in your hero viewable area and casts Town Gate spell, there are 100% change your hero learns Town Gate spell (a window is displayed at the beginning of the turn to inform the player).

*

Pathfinding: (modified version)

Reduces the movement penalty on rough terrains (Beach, Cracked land, Snow, Swamp, Desert).

Basic: -25% movement penalty.
Advanced: -50% movement penalty.
Expert: -100% movement penalty.

Tweaks:

Reduces the movement penalty on rough terrains (Beach, Cracked land, Snow, Swamp, Desert), and adds additional land movement.

Basic: -25% movement penalty, +1 Movement (100 points).
Advanced: -50% movement penalty, +2 Movement (200 points).
Expert: -100% movement penalty, +3 Movement (300 points).

The Hero Movement should be calculated this way:

((Base Hero Movement points (1500 points) - Creature Movement penalty) x Logitics Secondary skill bonus) + (Secondary skills bonus + Artifact bonus)

*

Scouting: (modified version)

Increases hero's viewable area on adventure map.

Basic: +1 square.
Advanced: +2 squares.
Expert: +3 squares.

Tweaks:

Increases hero's viewable area on adventure map, and adds additional land movement.

Basic: +1 square, +1 Movement (100 points).
Advanced: +2 squares, +2 Movement (200 points).
Expert: +3 squares, +3 Movement (300 points).

The Hero Movement should be calculated this way:

((Base Hero Movement points (1500 points) - Creature Movement penalty) x Logitics Secondary skill bonus) + (Secondary skills bonus + Artifact bonus)

*

Mysticism: (modified version)

Increases rate per turn in which hero regenerates magic points.

Basic: 1 magic point per day (2 with the hero magic point restored every day).
Advanced: 2 magic points per day (3 with the hero magic point restored every day).
Expert: 3 magic points per day (4 with the hero magic point restored every day).

Tweaks:

Basic: your hero regenerates 1 magic point per day on the adventure map, your hero regenerates up to 10 magic points at start of combat.
Advanced: your hero regenerates 2 magic points per day on the adventure map, your hero regenerates up to 20 magic points at start of combat.
Expert: your hero regenerates 3 magic points per day on the adventure map, your hero regenerates up to 30 magic points at start of combat.

The hero doesn't restore magic points above his max magic points (ex: max 20/20).

*

***** Edited 2016/05/12 - Start:

Adjustment for this. Smile

Navigation:

Hero gets an extra movement on water.

Basic: +50% movement.
Advanced: +100% movement.
Expert: +150% movement.

Tweaks:

Hero gets an extra movement on water and generates gold each turn (never enough gold in Heroes 2), and protects troops from whirlpools.

Basic: +50% movement on water, 25 60 gold per day, and protects troops from whirlpools.
Advanced: +100% movement on water, 50 125 gold per day, and protects troops from whirlpools.
Expert: +150% movement on water, 100 250 gold per day, and protects troops from whirlpools.

***** Edited 2016/05/12 - End.

*

Estates:

Hero generates gold each turn.

Basic: produces 100 gold per turn.
Advanced: produces 250 gold per turn.
Expert: produces 500 gold per turn.

Tweaks to always stay better than Navigation Expert:

Basic: produces 125 gold per turn.
Advanced: produces 250 gold per turn.
Expert: produces 500 gold per turn.

*

***** Edited 2016/05/04 - Start:

Adjustment for this. Smile

Ballistics: (new tweak)

In a siege, the catapult’s shots, damage, and accuracy are increased.

Basic: 1 shot + extra dam.
Advanced: 2 shots + extra dam.
Expert: 2 shots + max dam.

Tweaks:

In a siege, the catapult’s shots, damage, and accuracy are increased. When the Hero is the attacker during a siege, he gets a temporary additional bonus to Attack and Defense.

Basic: 1 shot + extra dam, +1 Attack and +1 Defense (temporary during the siege when the hero is the attacker).
Advanced: 2 shots + extra dam, +2 Attack and +2 Defense (temporary during the siege when the hero is the attacker).
Expert: 2 shots + max dam, +3 Attack and +3 Defense (temporary during the siege when the hero is the attacker).

***** Edited 2016/05/04 - End.

*

Secondary Skills present in Heroes 3 and adapted to Heroes 2.

*

Offense:

Increases the damage in hand-to-hand combat.

Basic: +10% damage.
Advanced: +20% damage.
Expert: +30% damage.

*

Defense:

Reduces the damage in combat.

Basic: -10% damage.
Advanced: -20% damage.
Expert: -30% damage.

*

Sorcery:

Increases the Hero Spell Power.

Basic: +2 to Spell Power.
Advanced: +4 to Spell Power.
Expert: +6 to Spell Power.

*

Resistance: (Magic Resistance)

Reduces damage from all damage spells (own or enemy spells).

Basic: -10% damage from all damage spells.
Advanced: -25% damage from all damage spells.
Expert: -50% damage from all damage spells.

*

Learning: (The AI must be teached how to use it between heroes).

Increases experience gained by hero during combat, allows hero to automatically exchange spells with other heroes during trading sessions. Hero learns spells that he/she doesn't know and teaches spells other hero doesn't know.

Basic: +25% experience, teach and learn spells level 2 and below.
Advanced: +50% experience, teach and learn spells level 3 and below.
Expert: +100% experience, teach and learn spells level 4 and below.

Note: the hero must have the appropriate level of Wisdom to learn spells.

*

Intelligence:

Increases Hero Knowledge.

Basic: +2 to Knowledge.
Advanced: +4 Knowledge.
Expert: +6 to Knowledge.

*

Tactics:

Gives extra Speed points to all your troops for the first turn during combat, and removes the movement penalties for embarking and disembarking on boat (the hero can move on the water when he embarks, and he can move on ground when he disembarks, if he has movement points left).

(The value is updated in the info windows of the creatures during combat for the first turn.)

Basic: Tactics +1, no movement penalty for embarking/disembarking to/from boat.
Advanced: Tactics +2, no movement penalty for embarking/disembarking to/from boat.
Expert: Tactics +3, no movement penalty for embarking/disembarking to/from boat.

Your tactics - enemy tactics = 1, gives +1 to Speed to all your troops for first combat turn.
Your tactics - enemy tactics = 2, gives +2 to Speed to all your troops for first combat turn.
Your tactics - enemy tactics = 3, gives +3 to Speed to all your troops for first combat turn.

Functioning with Slow and Haste spells:

The Slow and Haste spells act on the creature base movement, and the Tactics Speed bonus is added.

Ex:

A creature with base Speed 6 (ex: Boar) gets Speed 9 with the Tactics bonus 3, (6 (base Speed) + 3 (Tactics bonus 3)).

If the player casts Haste, the creature gets Speed 11, ((6 (base Speed) + 2 (Haste)) + 3 (Tactics bonus 3)).
Next turn the creature gets Speed 8, (6 (base Speed) + 2 (Haste)).

If the enemy hero casts Slow, the creature gets Speed 6, ((6 (base Speed) / 2 (Slow)) + 3 (Tactics bonus 3)).
Next turn the creature gets Speed 3, (6 (base Speed) / 2 (Slow)).

*

Chance for Secondary Skills to be learnt by heroes types.

Barbarian:

Offense: 3
Defense: 3
Sorcery: 1
Resistance: 3
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 2
Tactics: 2

*

Knight:

Offense: 4
Defense: 1
Sorcery: 1
Resistance: 3
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 2
Tactics: 3

*

Necromancer:

Offense: 2
Defense: 3
Sorcery: 3
Resistance: 2
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 3
Tactics: 2

*

Sorceress:

Offense: 2
Defense: 4
Sorcery: 4
Resistance: 3
Learning: 1
Intelligence: 1
Tactics: 2

*

Warlock:

Offense: 2
Defense: 2
Sorcery: 3
Resistance: 1
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 4
Tactics: 2

*

Wizard:

Offense: 3
Defense: 2
Sorcery: 3
Resistance: 1
Learning: 2
Intelligence: 3
Tactics: 2

*

New Secondary Skills.

*

Disruption:

Reduces enemy Hero Spell Power during combat.

(The value is updated in the info window of the enemy Hero.)

Basic: -1 to enemy Spell Power.
Advanced: -3 to enemy Spell Power.
Expert: -5 to enemy Spell Power.

Note: the enemy Hero Spell Power cannot be less than 1.

*

Chance for Secondary Skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Disruption:

Barbarian: 1
Knight: 1
Necromancer: 3
Sorceress: 2
Warlock: 2
Wizard: 2

*

Enchantment:

Allows to enchant artifacts in the hero inventory.
The bonuses of enchanted artifacts are doubled, the maluses are removed.
The spell contained in an enchanted Spell Scroll can be cast at free cost once per combat for combat spells, and once per day for adventure spells.

(The text is updated in the info windows of the Artifacts.)

Basic: Allows to enchant 1 combat artifact, 1 adventure artifact and 1 Spell Scroll (POL).
Advanced: Allows to enchant 2 combat artifacts, 2 adventure artifacts and 2 Spell Scrolls (POL).
Expert: Allows to enchant 3 combat artifacts, 3 adventure artifacts and 3 Spell Scrolls (POL).

Functioning:
 

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Enchantment:

Barbarian: 1
Knight: 1
Necromancer: 2
Sorceress: 3
Warlock: 2
Wizard: 3

*

Endurance:

Reduces the creatures movement penalty on the adventure map.

Basic: Your army moves as if the slowest creature has a minimum speed of 4.
Advanced: Your army moves as if the slowest creature has a minimum speed of 6.
Expert: Your army moves as if the slowest creature has a minimum speed of 7, your Hero gets Movement +1 (100 points).

Functioning:
 

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Endurance:

Barbarian: 3
Knight: 2
Necromancer: 2
Sorceress: 2
Warlock: 1
Wizard: 1

*

Mercenaries: (simplified version)

Adds bonus to the growth of creature for creatures level 1 to 3 in all towns/castles (cumulative for each hero with the skill), and gives supplementary creatures for free when the hero recruits creatures in the creature generators on the map.

(The values displayed for the growth of creatures are updated in the Recruit Screens for the towns/castles.)

Basic:
+3 to the growth of creature level 1 in all towns/castles,
and gives supplementary creatures for free when the hero recruits creatures in the levels 1 and levels 2 creature generators on the adventure map, and in Wagon Camp (Rogues) and Desert Tent (Nomads).

Advanced:
+3 to the growth of creature level 1 in all towns/castles,
+2 to the growth of creature level 2 in all towns/castles,
and gives supplementary creatures for free when the hero recruits creatures in the levels 1 and levels 2 creature generators on the adventure map, and in Wagon Camp (Rogues), Desert Tent (Nomads), Ruins (Medusas), Tumulus (Ghosts) and Autels (Elementals).

Expert:
+3 to the growth of creature level 1 in all towns/castles,
+2 to the growth of creature level 2 in all towns/castles,
+1 to the growth of creature level 3 in all towns/castles,
and gives supplementary creatures for free when the hero recruits creatures in the levels 1 and levels 2 creature generators on the adventure map, and in Wagon Camp (Rogues), Desert Tent (Nomads), Ruins (Medusas), Tumulus (Ghosts), Autels (Elementals), Troll Bridge (Trolls), City of the Dead (Power Liches), Lamp (Genies) and Dragon City (Red Dragons).

Functioning:
 

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Mercenaries:

Barbarian: 2
Knight: 3
Necromancer: 2
Sorceress: 3
Warlock: 1
Wizard: 2

*

Terror:

Your hero has built a solid reputation for ferocity and brutality, and this wherever he went, so don't be surprised if the morale of the enemy troops is at its lowest level.

(The Morale is updated in the info windows of the enemy creatures.)

Basic: -1 to Morale for enemy troops.
Advanced: -2 to Morale for enemy troops.
Expert: -3 to Morale for enemy troops.

Functioning:
 

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Terror:

Barbarian: 2
Knight: 1
Necromancer: 3
Sorceress: 1
Warlock: 2
Wizard: 1

*

***** Edited 2016/05/12 - Start:

Correction. Smile

Pillage: (new skill)

The hero receives Gold for each enemy creature decimated during combat, for each Town and each Castle captured, and for each resource generator where he initiated the Haunt spell and where the spell is still active. The hero has to get the spell in a Mage Guild, a Shrine or with a Scroll Spell, he doesn't get the spell for free with the Pillage Secondary Skill.

(A window is displayed at the end of combats, and when he capture a Town/Castle, to inform the player how many Gold he receives, the Gold from the Haunted resource generators is added to the Gold per day in the Kingdom Overview Screen.)
(The mine still has the player flag, so the player has a direct visual info (if the mine produces Gold due to the Haunt spell cast by a hero with the Pillage Secondary Skill, or if it's the standard Haunt spell who is active on the mine (neutral mine guarded by Ghosts)), but the mine is not added to the number of mines the player has in the Kingdom Overview Screen (as the mine produces Gold and not the standard resource).)
(A right click on an Haunted resource generator informs the player if the Haunted resource generator produces Gold, for which player, and how many.)

Functioning for the use of the Haunt spell: the hero, with the Pillage Secondary Skill, has just to cast the Haunt spell on a resource generator to receive the Gold each turn as long as the spell is active.

If the hero casts the spell with the Pillage skill at Basic level and he gets the Advanced level, the gain in Gold is automatically updated for all the resource generators where the spell is still active.


Basic:

receives 10 Gold for each enemy level 1 creature decimated during combat,
and receives 25 Gold for each enemy level 2 creature decimated during combat.

receives 250 Gold for each Town captured,
and receives 1250 Gold for each Castle captured.

receives 250 125 Gold per week day for each Gold Mine the hero has Haunted,
and receives 125 Gold per week day for each resource generator (Sulfur (1 unit), Crystal (1 unit), Gems (1 unit), Mercury (1 unit), Ore (2 units), Wood (2 units)) the hero has Haunted.


Advanced:

receives 10 Gold for each level 1 enemy creature decimated during combat,
receives 25 Gold for each level 2 enemy creature decimated during combat,
receives 50 Gold for each level 3 enemy creature decimated during combat,
and receives 75 Gold for each level 4 enemy creature decimated during combat.

receives 500 Gold for each Town captured,
and receives 2500 Gold for each Castle captured.

receives 500 250 Gold per week day for each Gold Mine the hero has Haunted,
and receives 250 Gold per week day for each resource generator (Sulfur (1 unit), Crystal (1 unit), Gems (1 unit), Mercury (1 unit), Ore (2 units), Wood (2 units)) the hero has Haunted.


Expert:

receives 10 Gold for each level 1 enemy creature decimated during combat,
receives 25 Gold for each level 2 enemy creature decimated during combat,
receives 50 Gold for each level 3 enemy creature decimated during combat,
receives 75 Gold for each level 4 enemy creature decimated during combat,
receives 100 Gold for each level 5 enemy creature decimated during combat,
and receives 150 Gold for each level 6 enemy creature decimated during combat.

receives 1000 Gold for each Town captured,
and receives 5000 Gold for each Castle captured.

receives 1000 500 Gold per week day for each Gold Mine the hero has Haunted,
and receives 500 Gold per week day for each resource generator (Sulfur (1 unit), Crystal (1 unit), Gems (1 unit), Mercury (1 unit), Ore (2 units), Wood (2 units)) the hero has Haunted.

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Pillage:

Barbarian: 3
Knight: 2
Necromancer: 3
Sorceress: 1
Warlock: 2
Wizard: 1

***** Edited 2016/05/12 - End.

**

It should be possible to set On/Off all the new Secondary Skills, so the player can remove a Secondary Skill if he don't want to play the game with this specific skill.

The percentage used for the chance of apparition of the Secondary Skills should be "automatically adjusted" based on a value (like an order of magnitude), so there is no need to modify all the values for the percentages of apparition.
So, to have an easy way to change the % value in a specific file without having to change everything each time.
Perhaps this way:

Functioning:
 

*

Note: as usual, all of this could eventually change, especially the stated values. Smile


Last edited by Unknown_Hero on 2016-05-13, 08:05; edited 1 time in total
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Unknown_Hero
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-05, 07:38

More secondary skills that were "pending".  Smile

Guerilla:

Increases the damage during combat for the troops in the hero army, and reduces the cost of recruitment (with more heroes with the skill, the reduction of cost becomes greater (2 heroes with the skill give 10% reduction of cost)) in all creature generators (in town/castle generators, and in all creature generators on the map (City of the Dead, Troll Bridge, Ruins, Dragon City, etc.)).
It's a global reduction of cost, it's not necessary the hero with the skill visits the locations (locations on the maps or towns/castles) to get the bonus.

Basic:
+20% damage for level 1 creatures,
+10% damage for level 2 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 2 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 and levels 2, and Rogues and Nomads).

Advanced:
+40% damage for level 1 creatures,
+30% damage for level 2 creatures,
+20% damage for level 3 creatures,
+10% damage for level 4 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 4 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 to levels 4, and Rogues, Nomads, Medusas, Ghosts and Elementals).

Expert:
+60% damage for level 1 creatures,
+50% damage for level 2 creatures,
+40% damage for level 3 creatures,
+30% damage for level 4 creatures,
+20% damage for level 5 creatures,
+10% damage for level 6 creatures,
5% reduction of cost (cumulative for each hero with the skill) when recruiting level 1 to level 6 creatures in all creature generators (all levels 1 to levels 6, and Rogues, Nomads, Medusas, Ghosts, Elementals, Power Liches (City of the Dead), Genies and Red Dragons (Dragon City)).

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Guerilla:

Barbarian: 3
Knight: 2
Necromancer: 3
Sorceress: 2
Warlock: 2
Wizard: 1

*


Siege: (modified version)

Gives bonuses to the hero during siege.

When the hero is the attacker:

Basic:
+1 to Attack during siege.
-10% damage from ballista and turrets.

Advanced:
+2 to Attack during siege.
-25% damage from ballista and turrets.

Expert:
+3 to Attack during siege.
-50% damage from ballista and turrets.

When the hero is the defender:

Basic:
+1 to Defense during siege.
+20% damage for ballista and turrets.

Advanced:
+2 to Defense during siege.
+50% damage for ballista and turrets.

Expert:
+3 to Defense during siege.
+100% damage for ballista and turrets.

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Siege:

Barbarian: 2
Knight: 3
Necromancer: 1
Sorceress: 2
Warlock: 1
Wizard: 2

*


Healing: (new skill)

Regenerates hit points to all the troops in the hero army, and can eventually "resurrect" troops.

Basic: regenerates up to a total of 100 hit points per troop as soon as the troop takes damage (physical damage and spell damage), the creatures are resurrected if enough hit points are restored.
Advanced: regenerates up to a total of 200 hit points per troop as soon as the troop takes damage (physical damage and spell damage), the creatures are resurrected if enough hit points are restored.
Expert: regenerates up to a total of 300 hit points per troop as soon as the troop takes damage (physical damage and spell damage), the creatures are resurrected if enough hit points are restored.

Functioning:
 

Chance for secondary skill to be learnt by heroes types.

Healing:

Barbarian: 2
Knight: 3
Necromancer: 1
Sorceress: 3
Warlock: 1
Wizard: 2


Last edited by Unknown_Hero on 2016-05-07, 13:49; edited 1 time in total
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Darmani
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-05, 11:51

Healing is interesting.

Just curious: When you're giving the chances for heroes to learn a skill, how do you come up with these numbers? Take me through your thought process.
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-06, 08:29

Darmani wrote:
Just curious: When you're giving the chances for heroes to learn a skill, how do you come up with these numbers? Take me through your thought process.

I use an online random number generator... ...just kidding.  Razz

This may vary depending on what the skill is intended for; here is a list, certainly not comprehensive, of different criteria considered:

if the skill and the castle/hero is more oriented "Might" or "Magic"

if the skill and the castle/hero is more oriented "Good" or "Evil"

if the castle/hero is more effective on small, medium or large maps

if the development of the castle is more oriented for early, middle or end game

if the development of the castle needs more or less ressources and gold

the hero primary skills advancement

the other secondary skills of hero advancement

if the hero have other ways (secondary skills, use of spells, creatures, etc.) to get similar or/and complementary bonus (if the skill will add a great bonus for the hero/castle, or if it will give a nice bonus, but it's not necessarily a "must have" for the hero/castle)

if the castle has flying units or/and ranged units, and at with time the creatures are available in the town development, and if these creatures have few or many hit points, and the speed of these creatures during combat

the different strategies the player can imagine and develop with all the possibilities of interaction with the other skills Wink

if the skill fits well to the "cultural spirit" of the hero/castle (even if it's only imaginary, and with the possibility of some degrees of variation)  Smile

the "experience" and the "feeling" of the game with all these years playing Heroes 2 (and Heroes 3) is also a good part of the process. Very Happy
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robizeratul
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-07, 03:06

I asked you before a long time ago, but I didn't think you answered...

All of this is for project ironfist, no ? If so, why ? I honestly read all your post and the more I read the more excited I've gotten. Only after I was done I realized this will be for ironfist...

Swmod is better in every way, not to mention 10x more people will try it than normal H2. I can't think of 1 thing why you would choose that over the mod from a technical/game play perspective. They also plan to add a minimod concept, so it would be quite easy to add your changes there...

Is there something I am not seeing ? Or is this just nostalgia ? Whatever it may be, i am just so sad I won't see these skills in SWmod...
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-07, 13:44

robizeratul wrote:
I asked you before a long time ago, but I didn't think you answered...

You should confuse with someone else. Smile

robizeratul wrote:
All of this is for project ironfist, no ? If so, why ? I honestly read all your post and the more I read the more excited I've gotten. Only after I was done I realized this will be for ironfist...

Swmod is better in every way, not to mention 10x more people will try it than normal H2. I can't think of 1 thing why you would choose that over the mod from a technical/game play perspective. They also plan to add a minimod concept, so it would be quite easy to add your changes there...

Is there something I am not seeing ? Or is this just nostalgia ? Whatever it may be, i am just so sad I won't see these skills in SWmod...

Ironfist will allow much more possibilities of modding, as it's more a modding tool than a simple mod.

The Ironfist team has access to what can be considered as the "source code" of the game, so basically, everything is possible, it's just a matter of willingness, wish, and competence to make a lot of stuff will be available to modding.

What will be included in H3SW mod is already planned, and it seems there is no place for new skills in their plans.
I don't know if it's possible to add new skills to Heroes 3, and I don't know if it's even possible to change/adjust the ones already present in the game.

So either way, it seems you will have to play Ironfist to have new skills in the game. Smile

H3SW mod will be more a mix between Heroes 2 and Heroes 3; per example, the battlefield will still be the way it's done in Heroes 3 (bigger battlefield).
I find the combats are more "dynamic" in Heroes 2, and with the H3SW mod, it will never be the same gameplay experience like in Heroes 2.

None of them is better than the other, they are just different, why make an exclusive choice when you can have both. Smile

I have played a lot of games in Heroes 3, more than in Heroes 2, at least for the time being, Smile and I have more fun playing Heroes 2 now.
I still play Heroes 2, it's not nostalgia, I just want to make changes to adjust/enhance the gameplay, at least to my vision of the game. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-08, 01:51

OK, I agree with the coding aspect. If you say more is possible than I agree.

However, the whole point of the mods concept is the ability to change the game. If I understand it correctly, you will have an official game ( the game made by the guys here) and you will be able to edit stuff. That way, you can add skills,monsters,change anything. Just like in the WOG menu, people will either play the normal game or your mod ( or something with the mod maneger)

Either way, you will be able to have your own version of H3SW mod. You will be able to change the combat to be identical to h2 and add everything you want. I know editing new skills is possible, I saw people do it on heroes community website.

I am saying this because playing your mod in H3SW will probably be better, bigger battlefield,more monsters, HD mod and so on. You are quite clever, I am sure you will figure out how to edit a lot of things.

The short version:as a H2 and H3 fan, I wouldn't want your efforts go to waste...if you do it only for yourself as a hobby, than no problem, but if you want people to actually play it, do it for the SWmod
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-08, 11:34

@robizeratul

If I need to change everything in Heroes 3 to have the same gameplay experience as with Heroes 2, and then add the changes/adjustments I want to make, why not simply start directly with Heroes 2, the Heroes 2 gameplay experience is already here, I just have to make the changes/adjustements I want to do, and with a more appropriate tool to do it.

Nothing will be wasted, the hardcore players who prefer to play Heroes 2 will find a way to discover the mod, or not, it's not so important. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-08, 23:00

hmm, ok, I understand. I will check it out to see what's up. Is there anything to download yet?

Anyway, depending on how much time you want to spend, you could make a SWmod "demo". So the Unknown Mod is the main thing, and the demo has only some features, those that you can easily make . If you have the time/effort that would be nice!

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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-05-09, 04:50

@robizeratul

Currently, there is nothing to download, apart some graphic changes, they can eventually be directly included in the "standard Ironfist" (so, no need to "load" them separately in the game), and I am greatly dependent on what would be accessible with Ironfist.
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-15, 18:39

I know the thread is almost a century old already. Just happend to have a free moment today, and while there are interesting ideas in this thread a few ideas I would like to oppose. Twisted Evil

Unknown_Hero wrote:

Diplomacy: (modified version)
Tweaks:
Basic: 100% will join, cost 100%, and reduces the cost of surrender to 80% of the total cost of your army.
Advanced: 100% will join, cost 75%, and reduces the cost of surrender to 60% of the total cost of your army.
Expert: 100% will join, cost 50%, and reduces the cost of surrender to 40% of the total cost of your army.

Diplomacy already is a game breakingly strong skill. If one makes it even stronger, it needs to be removed from the random skill selection and reserved for special cases when mapmaker in one or other way gives access to it. For actually balancing the skill, the chances for free join should be reduced and join cost rather increased than decreased. It could also be that the creatures do not join at all. You pay them just to avoid fight (possibly gain respective experience), but that may be too weak for a viable skill.

Quote :

Eagle Eye: (modified version)
Tweaks:
Your hero gets a chance to learn spells that have been cast against him in combat, and restores spell points each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.
Basic: 50% chance, 2nd level max, your hero restores 1 spell point multiplied by the level of the spell the opponent hero casts, each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.
Advanced: 75% chance, 3rd level max, your hero restores 2 spell points multiplied by the level of the spell the opponent hero casts, each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.
Expert: 100% chance, 4th level max, your hero restores 3 spell points multiplied by the level of the spell the opponent hero casts, each time the opponent hero casts a spell during combat.

Agree that the chances need to be increased, but mana regeneration is not good at all. From primary skills the knowledge already is the least useful. To allow mana regeneration during combat makes it even more so. Imagine a battle between eagle eye barbarian (max spell points 20) with dispell spell and high level wizard (300 spell points) with berserk, slow, etc non-damage spells. Due to mana regeneration the barbarian would be able to counter every spell the wizard throws at him! The wizard could run out of mana before barbarian.
Eagle eye could combine with or be replaced by sorcery, scholar or learning type of effects.

Quote :

Pathfinding: (modified version)
Scouting: (modified version)
Navigation:

The other idea of giving crystal ball artifact properties to scouting was much better. Giving additional movement or gold generation properties is IMO not really needed. The only "problem" with navigation is that sorceress has it as the starting skill, but on some maps it is totally useless. A possible interesting addition would be if it would remove movement malus from slow creatures (i.e. dwarves or hydras do not slow hero down, something like was proposed for "endurance" skill), but i do not know if it can be coded or if it would make the skill a better choice.

Quote :

Mysticism: (modified version)
Tweaks:
Basic: your hero regenerates 1 magic point per day on the adventure map, your hero regenerates up to 10 magic points at start of combat.
Advanced: your hero regenerates 2 magic points per day on the adventure map, your hero regenerates up to 20 magic points at start of combat.
Expert: your hero regenerates 3 magic points per day on the adventure map, your hero regenerates up to 30 magic points at start of combat.

I think HoMM5 got it pretty good. Again the mana regeneration should be proportional with the knowledge skill.
none: +1+0*knowledge sp/day
basic: +1+1*knowledge sp/day
advanced: +1+2*knowledge sp/day
expert: +1+3*knowledge sp/day

With knowledge 1 you regenerate 1, 2, 3 or 4 sp/day, with knowledge 10 you regenerate 1, 11, 21 or 31 sp/day.
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-16, 00:01

Pitsu wrote:
Diplomacy already is a game breakingly strong skill. If one makes it even stronger, it needs to be removed from the random skill selection and reserved for special cases when mapmaker in one or other way gives access to it. For actually balancing the skill, the chances for free join should be reduced and join cost rather increased than decreased. It could also be that the creatures do not join at all. You pay them just to avoid fight (possibly gain respective experience), but that may be too weak for a viable skill.
I absolutely agree. The people who do such "balancing" usually don't play tournaments and for some reason think that their skills are outstanding, while they are not the game may have various breaches and impurities which can be freely abused by some cunning players.
One of the colourful examples is the simultaneous death of both AI combatants after a glitch of autocalculated fight, which is a bug of Heroes 2 and it created a lot of scandals back in the time on Heroes Portal.

Diplomacy is surely overpowered both in H2 and H3, and this is why it was always blocked in H3 gaming leagues. H2 is just not a game of such scale to pay so much attention to multiplayer.

Pitsu wrote:
Agree that the chances need to be increased, but mana regeneration is not good at all. From primary skills the knowledge already is the least useful. To allow mana regeneration during combat makes it even more so. Imagine a battle between eagle eye barbarian (max spell points 20) with dispell spell and high level wizard (300 spell points) with berserk, slow, etc non-damage spells. Due to mana regeneration the barbarian would be able to counter every spell the wizard throws at him! The wizard could run out of mana before barbarian.
Eagle eye could combine with or be replaced by sorcery, scholar or learning type of effects.
I'm afraid there is no bloodless way to improve the Eagle Eye spell. The percentages can be increased, this is true, but the addition of an effect characteristic to H3 Scholar seems a little more appropriate to me. Teaching spells (de facto, transporting spells with the reinforcements) could become a way to make this skill useful, but still not for the main hero.

Pitsu wrote:
I think HoMM5 got it pretty good. Again the mana regeneration should be proportional with the knowledge skill.
none: +1+0*knowledge sp/day
basic: +1+1*knowledge sp/day
advanced: +1+2*knowledge sp/day
expert: +1+3*knowledge sp/day
Yeah, this is something to consider.

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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-16, 05:59

Pitsu wrote:
Diplomacy already is a game breakingly strong skill. If one makes it even stronger, it needs to be removed from the random skill selection and reserved for special cases when mapmaker in one or other way gives access to it. For actually balancing the skill, the chances for free join should be reduced and join cost rather increased than decreased. It could also be that the creatures do not join at all. You pay them just to avoid fight (possibly gain respective experience), but that may be too weak for a viable skill.

In standard Heroes 2, with the Diplomacy skill at Basic level, the skill is not so great, you get too few creatures and the cost is highly prohibitive.
Heroes 2 is not Heroes 3, in Heroes 2 the player is always (generally) short on Gold; in Heroes 2 a Gold mine is important, in Heroes 3 it's just a bonus not a "necessity", the economics in the games are different.
With the Diplomacy skill at Advanced level, the skill becomes a little better, you get more creatures but the cost is still way too high, except if the player has a very very strong economy.
It's only at Expert level that the skill really shines, you get all the creatures at initial cost, but generally, it takes time to reach this level, so the skill is more a sort of "waiting skill", and sometimes it doesn't matter anymore to have the skill at Expert level, it's too late in the game and it means a secondary skill slot has been wasted.

The change here is made so that the skill is efficient right with the Basic level, the player don't need to wait and hope for the Expert level to have a good skill.

But even with this, the player must remember that there is a choice to be made; as the player is always short on Gold, he will only be able to recruit the wandering creatures (with the Diplomacy skill) or to buy the creatures at his castle, so it will greatly depend on the situation.

Also, there are drawbacks with the Diplomacy skill; it costs a lot of Gold to recruit the wandering creatures (even at initial cost), so the player needs to build a really strong economy to use the skill efficiently, and the more the time passes the more it costs.
When the player choose to recruit the wandering creatures, he cannot get the experience points from the wandering creatures (combat with them), it's better to choose the fight for a low level hero, so he gets the experience points, but the hero should be strong enough to win against them, and it's better to choose to recruit them with a high level hero, so he gets stronger troops due to his high Attack and Defense skills during combat (with of course a whole lot of possibilities in between).
The hero gets also Morale penalties with different troops from different alignments in his army.
The hero cannot choose which creatures he recruits (he can choose the creatures at his castle), he wanted Elves but it's Royal Mummies, so what will he do?

And finally, even if it's all right, the hero can only have 5 troops in his army to fight during combat.

Pitsu wrote:
Agree that the chances need to be increased, but mana regeneration is not good at all. From primary skills the knowledge already is the least useful. To allow mana regeneration during combat makes it even more so. Imagine a battle between eagle eye barbarian (max spell points 20) with dispell spell and high level wizard (300 spell points) with berserk, slow, etc non-damage spells. Due to mana regeneration the barbarian would be able to counter every spell the wizard throws at him! The wizard could run out of mana before barbarian.
Eagle eye could combine with or be replaced by sorcery, scholar or learning type of effects.

Your example with the Barbarian and the Wizard is exactly what I want, now the skill is useful, and the Wizard needs to adapt his casting spell strategy and try direct damage spells.

I changed the secondary skills so they are always useful all game long. In the case of the Eagle Eyes skill, in standard Heroes 2, once the hero knows all the spells the skill becomes even more useless; with the change to the skill, the skill is always useful.

Also, I don't want to remove or "merge" the original skills present in Heroes 2, just "arrange" them.

Pitsu wrote:
The other idea of giving crystal ball artifact properties to scouting was much better. Giving additional movement or gold generation properties is IMO not really needed. The only "problem" with navigation is that sorceress has it as the starting skill, but on some maps it is totally useless. A possible interesting addition would be if it would remove movement malus from slow creatures (i.e. dwarves or hydras do not slow hero down, something like was proposed for "endurance" skill), but i do not know if it can be coded or if it would make the skill a better choice.

My goal with the changes is to make the secondary skills are always useful all game long and in all cases.

For Pathfinding, when there is only Grass as terrain on the map (for example), the skill is useless.
For Scouting, once the map is entirely revealed, the skill is useless.
For Navigation, if there is no sea on the map, the skill is useless.

So, with the changes, all the skills are always useful.

Pitsu wrote:
I think HoMM5 got it pretty good. Again the mana regeneration should be proportional with the knowledge skill.
none: +1+0*knowledge sp/day
basic: +1+1*knowledge sp/day
advanced: +1+2*knowledge sp/day
expert: +1+3*knowledge sp/day

With knowledge 1 you regenerate 1, 2, 3 or 4 sp/day, with knowledge 10 you regenerate 1, 11, 21 or 31 sp/day.

I briefly tried the Heroes 5 demo, and that's it, so I have no experience with Heroes 5.

Receiving unquestionably 31 spell points per day seems a lot.

I also prefer the secondary skills are completely independant from the primary skills, that they work in an autonomous way.

**

As general line, this mod is not designed to "balance" the game, I like the way Heroes 2 is balanced/unbalanced and I want to preserve/emphasize this.

For me, Heroes 2 is a strategy game to play in solo mode, I don't want the game to be changed to obtain the perfect balance (unobtainable anyway) dedicaced to multiplayer game.

But, the players can still play with this mod in cooperation in multiplayer game (like hot seat mode) with the goal to have fun to play the game together; and it can even be played in a competitive manner if the player has an open mind: "Oh, my opponent has much more advantages than me... ...what a challenge, I like this."

Also, the beauty of modding is that the player can change the way things work, so basically the player can always tweak how it work to his liking; the player think the values are too high or too low, he can change them, he don't like a specific new skill, he can just remove it; he can make his own mod by modding a mod. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-16, 12:49

Unknown_Hero wrote:
As general line, this mod is not designed to "balance" the game, I like the way Heroes 2 is balanced/unbalanced and I want to preserve/emphasize this.

For me, Heroes 2 is a strategy game to play in solo mode, I don't want the game to be changed to obtain the perfect balance (unobtainable anyway) dedicaced to multiplayer game.

But, the players can still play with this mod in cooperation in multiplayer game (like hot seat mode) with the goal to have fun to play the game together; and it can even be played in a competitive manner if the player has an open mind: "Oh, my opponent has much more advantages than me... ...what a challenge, I like this."

Just stopping by here from time to time, but felt the need to make a reply to this quote. I haven't really given too much though to any of the skill adjustments, but I'm rather addressing about the "design philosophy", so to speak.

As far as I have understood, creature's values, skills and spells are intended to be slightly rebalanced for the mod. I have no idea of what the extent of this is going to be, but I really think it's a great opportunity to correct some balance issues in the game.

I don't really understand why you would ever want to emphasize the "unbalance" of the game. Is that really what makes Heroes what it is? If you were to tweak some numbers, would it change how you viewed the game? The aesthetics and music of the game are the same, the gameplay is the same. Maybe a Peasant wouldn't have 1 in every single stat - this could be healthy for the game, and certainly add some flavor instead of stealing it, with people actually using them in their armies.

Perfect balance is always something that should be striven towards. This doesn't mean that all creatures are basically the same. In the most basic sense it just means that you tweak some mechanics and some numbers so that you don't automatically feel at a disadvantage for playing a certain castle or gaining a certain skill. This process doesn't have to take anything away from the feel of the game at all. Peasants can still be the weakest creature. Black Dragons can still be a force to be reckoned with. There is always a middle ground. If the project is going to be using the Attack and Defense formula of Heroes 3, this would be an ideal opportunity to tweak creature stats for the better.

And that last paragraph, again, it is really bad design if you are in a position where you are at a heavy disadvantage from the get-go. This is just completely unnecessary. That's what the Handicap function is for (although it's pretty poorly handled in the Heroes games).

All in all, a game should be balanced with different approaches to the game being just as viable. If one would want to give a certain advantage or disadvantage to a certain player, custom player made maps are ideal for this purpose. Players shouldn't have to mod a mod to achieve balance.

Sorry if this feels directed at you in any negative way or anything, that isn't my intention. I'm pretty sure I have repeated myself a few times as well, but it's almost 3 AM, and I should get some sleep.

Edit: Wrote this in the middle of the night, thought for a moment that it was for Succession Wars. Sorry about that, my general point still stands.


Last edited by Thorjac on 2016-08-16, 18:46; edited 2 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-16, 15:00

Quote :
If the project is going to be using the Attack and Defense formula of Heroes 3, this would be an ideal opportunity to tweak creature stats for the better.
I have no clue what project do you mean, for this thread is located in Heroes 2 Modding section.

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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-16, 18:46

I'm so sorry about that, thought for a moment I was replying to The Succession Wars. I have edited my post accordingly.
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-17, 01:18

@Thorjac

Looking at the game as a whole, small map, medium map, large map, huge map, might, magic, etc., etc., etc., I find that the game is "well balanced" and very pleasant to play and offers a lot of diversities and a very good replayability.

The "unbalance" of the game is what make the game so great and so fun to play. Smile

Every player/modder would like to play/mod the game in a different way.

I like the way the original Heroes 2 is designed with this particular "unbalance", and I want to preserve this in this mod.

Perfect balance is not the Holy Grail. Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-17, 17:51

Guess I should reveal sooner rather than later that we are going to be doing some rebalancing of the existing factions. I've found the game becomes more fun when playing with the balance patch I created with UndeadHalfOrc. Lots of things that were pretty irrelevant before


-----------

I must confess that I've basically never used Diplomacy when playing HoMM II seriously. If it truly is game breaking, that means I have something to learn. I am a bit skeptical because gold tends to be a bigger bottleneck than creatures in HoMM II. Sounds like I'll have to play and find out.
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-17, 20:50

Whoa, I did not expect to spark so much discussion. But very well, lets continue.
Unknown_Hero wrote:

I changed the secondary skills so they are always useful all game long.
This is where our philosophies differ. I my opinion, if you have skills or in more general "choices" which are always good, the game loses strategy. There is not much strategy is choosing logistics or wisdom, because they are almost always a good pick. Skills or spells which usefulness depends on map layout and opponents are much more interesting because the player must  think "in this particular map/situation, do I benefit from this skill/spell?". On water maps navigation is  a strong skill, and so is pathfinding on rough terrains. If you have not scouted the map enough to know it, why should navigation or pathfinding still be viable choices for you? With spells (mass) haste, slow and lightning bolt are such no-brainers that one easily forgets that he/she even has brains...

Unknown_Hero wrote:

It's only at Expert level that the skill really shines, you get all the creatures at initial cost, but generally, it takes time to reach this level, so the skill is more a sort of "waiting skill", and sometimes it doesn't matter anymore to have the skill at Expert level, it's too late in the game and it means a secondary skill slot has been wasted.
I agree that in H2 diplomacy before expert level is not very sexy. It is still a rushing skill IMO, getting even a few stacks to join in first week(s) makes a lot of difference. The gold from chests and lose resources which you normally would use for city dwellings will go for neutrals and mage guild and by the end of week 1 or 2 you are the superpower on map. Yes, if you miss the time window you may doom yourself in long run. Maybe that is how it is balanced. Because the chance for join depends on hero faction and which armies he/she already has, on maps rich of neutral armies it is not so difficult to get more or less desired army. If you play off-line tourneys, then getting neutral joins is a major strategy how goals are achieved superfast. I admit, often it is actually joins without diplomacy skill involved.  

Unknown_Hero wrote:

Your example with the Barbarian and the Wizard is exactly what I want, now the skill is useful, and the Wizard needs to adapt his casting spell strategy and try direct damage spells.
As said before, I like it when one needs to chose skills/spells/tactics depending on situation. In H5 necromancers and wizards can regenerate mana during battle. Nevertheless it requires skill (playing skill, not a passive primary or secondary skill :p)  from player to do so. The current proposal for eagle eye would make the already weaker magic heroes an even less viable choice and degenerates the value on knowledge primary skill. Therefore I find the modification to remove from the game more than it adds.

Unknown_Hero wrote:


Receiving unquestionably 31 spell points per day seems a lot.
If we rephrase it would be 10%, 20% or 30% of total mana pool for a hero with basic, advanced or expert mysticism, respectively. If you somehow manage to do a hero with mana pool 1000 you regenerate 300 spell points a day with expert mysticism. I can only say that IMO it works fine.

Darmani wrote:

I must confess that I've basically never used Diplomacy when playing HoMM II seriously. If it truly is game breaking, that means I have something to learn. I am a bit skeptical because gold tends to be a bigger bottleneck than creatures in HoMM II. Sounds like I'll have to play and find out.
Is the algorithm that decides creature joins the same as in H3? http://heroescommunity.com/viewthread.php3?TID=28341
My personal feeling is that the chance of joining without the diplomacy skill involved is higher in H2 than in H3, but this is just a gut feeling, which may be wrong.  If true, the relative effect of diplomacy would seem weaker though. And as said before, the basic and advanced levels give a feeling of a crap skill and if not paying attention you may reach expert so late in game that there are no neutrals anymore.
In a related issue, in H3 the mapmaker can chose creature "mood" like "always join", "savage", "never join" etc, but in H2 not. Only ghosts are "never join" neutrals in H2 and dwarves etc "always join" in campaign. It may have some relevance in story maps/campaigns.  Does this parameter exists in H2?
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-17, 22:21

Agree with Pitsu on this one. I find no need for secondary skills always to have some purpose in certain maps when they have it in others (pathfinding, navigation). That makes for interesting scenarios when the Sorceress can dominate the early game in maps like Surf and Turf while their navigation is completely useless in others.

I do not think there is a "mood" parameter for neutrals in H2, but it might be hidden somewhere or coded. Did dwarves always join in the dwarf scenario in the Roland campaign?
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-18, 04:15

Darmani wrote:
Guess I should reveal sooner rather than later that we are going to be doing some rebalancing of the existing factions. I've found the game becomes more fun when playing with the balance patch I created with UndeadHalfOrc. Lots of things that were pretty irrelevant before

So, there will be an "official mod" included in Ironfist.
Will there be a mod manager included directly in the game interface (as to select a scenario) or/and a setting file to change before launching the program?

And what was your goal when you made the balance patch?

Darmani wrote:
I must confess that I've basically never used Diplomacy when playing HoMM II seriously. If it truly is game breaking, that means I have something to learn. I am a bit skeptical because gold tends to be a bigger bottleneck than creatures in HoMM II. Sounds like I'll have to play and find out.

Yes, Gold is the primary bottleneck (generally) in the game, and the availability of creatures is behind. Smile

Pitsu wrote:
This is where our philosophies differ. I my opinion, if you have skills or in more general "choices" which are always good, the game loses strategy. There is not much strategy is choosing logistics or wisdom, because they are almost always a good pick. Skills or spells which usefulness depends on map layout and opponents are much more interesting because the player must  think "in this particular map/situation, do I benefit from this skill/spell?".

The strategic choices really come when all the skills proposed are useful, when you want to have both the available skills but you can only pick one.

There is no choice when you have to choose between an useful skill and an useless skill, you pick the useful skill.
Logistics or Eagle Eye... ...you pick Logistics because Eagle Eye is useless.

There is no choice when you have to choose between a good skill and a not so good skill, Smile you pick the good skill.
Logistics or Navigation... ...you pick Logistics because it's more useful.

There is no choice at all when you have to choose between Eagle Eye or Navigation on a map with no sea... ...you just resign yourself... ...and choose based on the artwork. Very Happy

There IS a real strategic choice between Logistics and Wisdom because they are both useful; will you choose the hero movement or the capacity to cast level 3 spells?
This IS an interesting choice to be made depending the map/situation.

Sir Albe wrote:
Agree with Pitsu on this one. I find no need for secondary skills always to have some purpose in certain maps when they have it in others (pathfinding, navigation). That makes for interesting scenarios when the Sorceress can dominate the early game in maps like Surf and Turf...

The changes to the skills will not change this, the Sorceress will still dominate the early game in maps like Surf and Turf, and the Pathfinding skill will still be a must have on desert maps...

Sir Albe wrote:
...while their navigation is completely useless in others.

...but with the changes, the skills can be envisaged now, it's what I want for the mod. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-18, 06:52

Unknown_Hero wrote:

The strategic choices really come when all the skills proposed are useful, when you want to have both the available skills but you can only pick one.

There is no choice when you have to choose between an useful skill and an useless skill, you pick the useful skill.
Logistics or Eagle Eye... ...you pick Logistics because Eagle Eye is useless.

There is no choice when you have to choose between a good skill and a not so good skill, Smile you pick the good skill.
Logistics or Navigation... ...you pick Logistics because it's more useful.

There is no choice at all when you have to choose between Eagle Eye or Navigation on a map with no sea... ...you just resign yourself... ...and choose based on the artwork. Very Happy

There IS a real strategic choice between Logistics and Wisdom because they are both useful; will you choose the hero movement or the capacity to cast level 3 spells?
This IS an interesting choice to be made depending the map/situation.

All skills should be useful, but their usefulness should depend on situation. H2 eagle eye is indeed as good as useless and therefore needs some change. On an archipelago map I actually may pick navigation over logistics. Unfortunately archipelagos are not very common and therefore logistics is a skill which usefulness does not really depend on anything. It is always useful. Adding gold generation to navigation would not make it a choice comparable to logistics. Not for primary heroes. For money generating secondary heroes estates and navigations both would become important tough. But instead of skill usefulnes choice it would be a choice which hero is primary and which secondary. This choice is ther eanyway. The problem with turn based games with good control is that there will be general "best" hero builds unless the efectiveness of skills is very dependant on map and enemy.

With wisdom vs logistics there is only the coice which one to level faster. With wisdom being so important skill, most heroes start with it and knights and barbarians get a special offer for it within first 6 levelups (IIRC). In the few occasion where basic wisdom vs basic logistics can come up, it is always wisdom unless magic is planned to be ignored for entire game. Advanced wisdom vs advanced logistics would be a strategic choice, but it is not a choice which skills to have, but which skills to level how fast.

If we look at H2 secondary skills then as said wisdom and logistics are special or better than others. If you want secondary heroes for money generation, then estates for them, but primary fighning hero always has better choices than estates. Ballistics, archery, luck, leadership, mystitism, navigation, pathfinding, diplomacy, necromancy and even scouting (more a secondary hero skill again, but still) are all skills for the main hero which usefulness depends on map, armies and hero type. They are not perfectly balanced, but still enough that I have no clear preferences for a perfect build. The game would gain a lot from skills that help to counter certain hero or army types, but I am afraid this is beyond modding and requires a more principal change in game mechanics.

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Unknown_Hero
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-18, 08:34

@Pitsu

There's so much situational possibilities in this game, this is what makes the game so great. Smile

Depending the situation, I can pick Estates over Logistics, and this even with a primary hero; per example, it doesn't matter if the hero can move further if you cannot buy the creatures at your castle and the hero is blocked by strong wandering creatures in the starting area...

Pitsu wrote:
In the few occasion where basic wisdom vs basic logistics can come up, it is always wisdom unless magic is planned to be ignored for entire game.

Here again, it greatly depends on the situation; Logistics can be the skill to choose, and it also greatly depends on the role of the hero...

There is endless possibilities of different situations (almost)... Very Happy
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Steven Aus
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-19, 02:10

Out of the different skill systems: H1 (profession ability and primary skills only)/H2 & H3 (up to 8 secondary skills to expert)/H4 (opening a skill path opens up Grandmaster levels, 5 levels, in 4 associated skills, 5 different skill paths max)/H5 and H5.5 (6 or 8 skills to expert plus one level only "perk" skills, which can have other requirements/skill trees than just the secondary skills, and maximum one perk for each level in the skill), I must say I prefer the H5/H5.5 way.  H4 gets a bit tiring having to level up each skill 4 times, and H2/H3 is a bit limited with only basic, advanced and expert skills (and H1 even more so without secondary skills at all).  Some abilities are best as one-off (scaled) perks rather than three or five level skills.

Is it possible to have perks in Ironfist?  Even if it can't be chosen in the standard level-up dialog, is it possible to put a new dialog beside it?
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PostSubject: Re: [Unknown Mod] Changes to the Secondary Skills, and new Secondary Skills   2016-08-19, 07:41

Sir Albe wrote:
Did dwarves always join in the dwarf scenario in the Roland campaign?

Yes, once the player has the "Dwarven alliance", the dwarves always join, or "vanish" if the hero has no free slot in his army, for the rest of the campaign, except if the player choose to betray Roland. Smile
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