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 H3SW Creature Balance

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Sir Albe
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-10, 06:39

Second update on creature balance
I changed a couple of small things to improve the general balance of the mod. Here is the changelog:

New Units:
First of all we got some new units for the mod:

Rogue:
- Attack decreased from 6 to 5
- Cost decreased from 65 to 60 gold


Bandit:

The Bandit has been reintroduced to the Dervish line-up. Along with his return he received a change in stats. His return also means that the Rogue had to be lowered a bit in attack to make room for the Bandit.


Today also the Ghost is revealed.

Ghost:

Its stats are very close to the H2 ones.

Changes in creature stats and abilities:

Power Lich:
- Health increased from 50 to 55
- Cost increased from 965 to 1000 gold

The Power Lich had a damage/health ratio a bit of its H2 one, thus a little health increase was needed.

Bone Dragon:
- Damage decreased from 30-45 to 25-45
- Cost decreased from 2500 to 2450 gold

The Bone Dragon had slightly increased damage compared to H2. It was found that this increase in damage was unnecessary and therefor changed back to the H2 value.

Gargoyle:
- Received "Non-living" ability
- Speed decreased from 8 to 7
- Cost decreased from 165 to 160 gold

The Gargoyle got a small decrease in its movement while also gaining the "Non-living" attribute which H3 gargoyles also posses. It makes them immune to Resurrection, Aging, Death Stare, Life Drain, Disease, Death Cloud and Demon Summoning (Pit Lord).

Ogre:
- Health decreased from 50 to 45
- Cost decreased from 330 to 315 gold

The Ogre and Ogre Lord both had a damage/health ratio a bit different than their H2 versions. That means that the Ogre to its health lowered a bit while the Ogre Lord got its health increased a bit.

Ogre Lord:
- Health increased from 60 to 65
- Cost decreased from 465 to 485 gold


Cyclops:
- Received "20% chance to Paralyze enemies on attack"
- Cost increased from 850 gold and 1 crystal to 950 gold and 1 crystal

The Cyclops received his classic "20% chance to paralyze enemies on attack". This means a increase in his cost.

Lizardman:
- Damage decreased from 2-5 to 2-4
- Cost decreased from 180 to 165 gold

The Lizardman and Lizardman Warrior had too few differences between them. The upgrade was too small and therefor the damage of the Lizardman was decreased and increased for the Lizardman Warrior.

Lizardman Warrior:
- Damage increased from 2-5 to 2-6
- Cost decreased from 210 to 230 gold


Gorgon:
- Attack decreased from 8 to 7
- Defense decreased from 10 to 9
- Damage increased from 6-9 to 7-10
- Cost increased from 525 to 540 gold

The Gorgon was a bit too defensive for its purpose. It is meant to be a more balance skirmish walker and leave the tanking for the Treant.

Wyvern:
- Health decreased from 100 to 90
- Damage increased from 15-25 to 15-30

The Wyvern was also a bit too defensive and should be a more dangerous flying unit with good damage along its poison ability.

Medusa:
- Cost increased from 430 to 435 gold

A small correction was made.

Genie:
- Damage decreased from 20-30 to 15-30
- Health increased from 60 to 65

The Genie was a bit too squishy and thus sacrificed a bit of damage for a health increase.


Last edited by Sir Albe on 2016-09-10, 21:42; edited 2 times in total
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Steven Aus
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-10, 21:31

I don't know if it's that way in the game, but "Rouge" is a different thing from "Rogue". As far as I know, Rouge is something women put on their face. I may be wrong about that, but "Rogue" is the proper spelling, not "Rouge".
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Sir Albe
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-10, 21:32

That is just an example of me writing too fast - it will be fixed soon Smile
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Uhm
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-10, 23:04

Ghosts are back! Good and terrible news at the same time Very Happy Now we need creature, which has an ability of halving stacks Wink
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Steven Aus
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-10, 23:23

Can't you include ghosts as a neutral only creature and not available through diplomacy or purchase? Or is that not possible?
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Sir Albe
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-10, 23:25

Haha, Ghosts will always be back! Cool Well, the Genies got the "Aging" ability which reminds a bit of halving a stack. It just halves the health instead Wink

I think we can prevent it from entering the player's army, but we also might want to have it sometimes. I think a ban is possible though Smile


Last edited by Sir Albe on 2017-09-27, 06:21; edited 1 time in total
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GodRage
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-12, 00:12

Steven Aus wrote:
I don't know if it's that way in the game, but "Rouge" is a different thing from "Rogue".  As far as I know, Rouge is something women put on their face.  I may be wrong about that, but "Rogue" is the proper spelling, not "Rouge".
Rouge means Red in french. And so, the Red stuff on lips of girls is "Rouge". Wink

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Steven Aus
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-12, 01:32

Thanks. Smile Almost right. I did 3 years of french in the first three years of high school, but that was over 20 years ago. Smile
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Tibor0803
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-12, 02:55

Hello guys! It's been a long time I did not visit this page. How is the development of H3SW going?

I see many cool looking new design and creatures in the latest posts. I can't wait for an available download for the version you are working on.
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Sir Albe
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2016-09-12, 07:50

Tibor0803 wrote:
Hello guys! It's been a long time I did not visit this page. How is the development of H3SW going?

I see many cool looking new design and creatures in the latest posts. I can't wait for an available download for the version you are working on.

Hi Tibor Smile

Nice to hear from you again Smile The development is still going and we reached some nice achievements the last months for instance all terrains and the mini map has been fixed. We are still working on some programming features and creature animation, but overall it is going really good Smile
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2017-12-14, 08:56

I think it's time to refresh this thread!

I've run a quick tests and I think peasants are a bit too op. 3hp makes them too tanky in large quantities (hut gives 24 of those for free!). Will post more suggestions in the future (hopefuly other team members will as well) Smile

____Edit// We can try to lower their hp or continue testing, cuz I'm not sure yet about that change and would probably leave it for now.
Ballista on the other hand is very much underpowered. Expert artillery causing maybe 20 points of damage with both shots being critical (also, advanced and expert levels are almost exacly the same, the only change being 75% crit -> 100% crit which is lame. Would change the damage x2 on every attack + make the expert level have  75% crit x3 damage as opposed to 100% crit x2 damage. Or just a third shot.

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YhyJasne
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-02, 02:34

how about some tweaks to the creature line-up? think it looks better this way. feels more harmonic i think. open to discussion Smile
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Orzie
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 03:07

I discussed things with feanor lately. I see the point mostly, but there are big "buts" all the way.

- Putting Crossbowman on Level 5 is not to be discussed. There is no need in doing that, and this brings Knight closer to Heroes 3, which should be avoided when possible. Knight is a faction which a priori has lower stats, but higher growth, upgradeability and lower costs.

- Wolf on the 4th level is confusing. I understand that for some people the Harpy feels a little weak, but this can be solved via improving the Harpy's design in future rather than switching creatures. Having 13 of 16 Barbarians with Harpies in lineup in their starting armies just doesn't feel natural, and this will not be done. Harpy is rather a tactical creature, while Barbarian is not about tactics, so no additional focus on Harpies is needed - it was rather a "lesser evil" decision than a confident choice, since Harpy has a tight affiliation with the Warlock faction. It's also good to have color variety when the Wolf is a some kind of interlayer, so that we don't have too much brown color in consequent creatures.

- Once I really thought about having the Beholder on 3rd, but this brings back the confusing feeling of Griffin and Roc being copies of each other. Just look at the wings. This was the original game design's fault, but still we can solve it. Also, having 2 shooters in starting armies is surely confusing. So, the Warlock's creatures all are more expensive, but also tougher for their respective tier.

- The suggested Witch lineup currently duplicates the H3 Fortress lineup, which we try to avoid. It's okay to have Lizardmen at 3rd, because I have some thoughts for their ability, so that they can concur with Elves somehow. Wasps at 3rd are just a big copy of H3. Concerning the Mantis and Toad, I also don't go for the switch, I would rather improve their static design (making the Toad smaller was in plans for v0.9, actually). The Mantis design is also somewhat WIP and will be improved, too.


I would also put Manticore on the 6th, but this brings unnecessary similarity between Minotaur, Anubite and Ogre who would feel all the same. So, it's only the Beholder which might be switched with the Griffin later, if we really see this necessary after the release.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 03:26

Orzie wrote:
I discussed things with feanor lately. I see the point mostly, but there are big "buts" all the way.

- Putting Crossbowman on Level 5 is not to be discussed. There is no need in doing that, and this brings Knight closer to Heroes 3, which should be avoided when possible. Knight is a faction which a priori has lower stats, but higher growth, upgradeability and lower costs.

- Wolf on the 4th level is confusing. I understand that for some people the Harpy feels a little weak, but this can be solved via improving the Harpy's design in future rather than switching creatures. Having 13 of 16 Barbarians with Harpies in lineup in their starting armies just doesn't feel natural, and this will not be done. Harpy is rather a tactical creature, while Barbarian is not about tactics, so no additional focus on Harpies is needed - it was rather a "lesser evil" decision than a confident choice, since Harpy has a tight affiliation with the Warlock faction. It's also good to have color variety when the Wolf is a some kind of interlayer, so that we don't have too much brown color in consequent creatures.

- Once I really thought about having the Beholder on 3rd, but this brings back the confusing feeling of Griffin and Roc being copies of each other. Just look at the wings. This was the original game design's fault, but still we can solve it. Also, having 2 shooters in starting armies is surely confusing. So, the Warlock's creatures all are more expensive, but also tougher for their respective tier.

- The suggested Witch lineup currently duplicates the H3 Fortress lineup, which we try to avoid. It's okay to have Lizardmen at 3rd, because I have some thoughts for their ability, so that they can concur with Elves somehow. Wasps at 3rd are just a big copy of H3. Concerning the Mantis and Toad, I also don't go for the switch, I would rather improve their static design (making the Toad smaller was in plans for v0.9, actually). The Mantis design is also somewhat WIP and will be improved, too.


I would also put Manticore on the 6th, but this brings unnecessary similarity between Minotaur, Anubite and Ogre who would feel all the same. So, it's only the Beholder which might be switched with the Griffin later, if we really see this necessary after the release.

I agree on pretty much all of these with Orzie.
I think because people are used to the H3 line ups, everyone wants them as close as possible (even though they are already pretty much similar). There's no need to make it so close to the H3 line ups, and for sure would make it less unique.

About the Witch line up:
Lizardman works really well against the Elf. Lizardman focuses more on being a low level shooter with high health and defence, while the elf has higher attack and deals more damage, while it has low health.

For the Mantis I think "No enemy retaliation" ability would fit well, it's stats are average and it dies fairly quickly so the ability would make it more useful. With it's claws I imagine a creature that could miss enemy retaliations so it fits the design well. It would also make it more unique from other lvl 5 melee creatures which is important.
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Orzie
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 03:34

Let's put this ability for the Mantis, then. I'll also put the stats you suggest for the next update of the closed beta, so the team can check.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 03:45

Orzie wrote:
Let's put this ability for the Mantis, then. I'll also put the stats you suggest for the next update of the closed beta, so the team can check.

My brother and his friend suggested it, but after some consideration it seems it could be a good solution, fits the design well too. For an odd reason the Mantis had very high damage before (higher than Minotaur King) while the Toad and Treant are already powerful for their levels.

The Mantis has now average stats with an ability that still makes it useful in the Witch line up.

Writing up the Dervish ones right now from my txt file.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 03:49

well, i try to help with putting my effort on these forums, but let's face it:
you analyze this too much,
it's hard to find any info on the forum, seems like all the project is in one or two heads.
i really think you need some refreshment in the process, becuase you actually do the game for more players.
who i am:
i've been playing h2 for the sentiment like everyone here Smile
i've started playtesting new h3 hota mode with ranked gameplay
i've played leauge of legends and other games eventually scoring 50-50% at the end of my gameplay in those games.
i've played 1 (just one) ranked h3 map with an semi experienced player (i coul gather more info, but he played about a month in ranked maps) and we scored a tie, after i analyzed tutorials, strategies, yt gameplay, stats and best and alternative ways to win.

i have enough experience to balance statistics on my own, but if you're too close minded, you'll just end up creating this for a handful of community.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 03:52

i could help, but i'd like to avoid inventing my conceptions, trying not to waste anything you've put here, but i'd need to gather some importand info what are set in stone developement decisions.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 04:06

The thing is, we didn't ask for help at this point of development. It's funny how you say that something is your opinion, but react so aggresively when you realize that we have a different one.

Concerning the visuals, it's true that another designer might have had his/hers own opinion on the creature lineups, and probably there wouldn't be MM6 creatures. We all see the game in a different way. It's just your choice to play or not, and it is impossible to make a perfect game for everyone. A critical example would be that guy Luka Kordic (sorry if I misspelled the name) on Facebook, his suggestions sound no less than hilarious for me, because I see the game differently and I have got a vision how it was made, more or less, so I know that Gargoyles cannot go to Wizard, because they were designed for Warlock, both concept- and graphics-wise. MM6 stands out here, but it was my personal wish, which is warmly greeted by everyone who played the actual NWC games, if you will. It is anyway impossible to put so many new creatures to Heroes 2 without stretching the boundaries, because Heroes 2 in fact didn't need whole 2 new factions. It was self sufficient with its lineups already.

Concerning the balance.

Quote :
i have enough experience to balance statistics on my own, but if you're too close minded, you'll just end up creating this for a handful of community.
Just leave this attitude "I know better than you" behind and everything will eventually be brought back to normal. The first stable beta will be the signal for us. No, you don't know better, because you did not play the game yet. It's not released. But when it will, the opinions may (or may not) matter a lot.

Quote :
i could help, but i'd like to avoid inventing my conceptions, trying not to waste anything you've put here, but i'd need to gather some importand info what are set in stone developement decisions.
When the stable release is done, there will be place for discussion already. For now, the stats are changing everyday and the magic system is still H3, and the artifacts are not like they are supposed to be, and about a dozen hero specialties don't work, so it just doesn't make much sense to put serious faith in the current creature balance - it will be changed dozens of times. Treat this like vanilla H2, for now. It didn't have balance, it was just fun to play.

Sometimes it is not in my power to bring the actual information, because I am not the only one who works on the game, and I am not omnipotent. Creature abilities which are in the design document and which will be in the game, differ noticeably, and I cannot change it, I can only hope that another person will find time and inspiration to modify the game in the required way. Same with other factors.

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Last edited by Orzie on 2018-03-03, 04:12; edited 3 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 04:08

When  the line up was posted on the Facebook page, everyone was suggesting a million different ways for how it should be changed without even testing the gameplay and the mod itself. I'm sure Orzie is taking in a lot of feedback but a lot of decisions have been made with a bunch of players through the years. If the line up keeps changing a final decision will never be made.

Right now a lot of statistics of the creatures are being adjusted because crazy and odd changes have been made in the past. These statistics will be updated for the new mod version and should be tested well throughout.

We need as much feedback as possible from EVERYONE and make careful decisions as a group, but if one person suggests lots of changes and quickly get hurt this mod will never see a positive future.

Let's focus on what we have now, perhaps test the game with the new stat changes (there's many) and see what could be adjusted. It seems like a lot of people are suggesting line up changes to be similar to H3, but they don't actually have any reasons for them, "just because they like it that way".


Last edited by Kivo on 2018-03-03, 04:16; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 04:14

thanks.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 04:50

will I be able to playtest for a video recorded?
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW Creature Balance   2018-03-03, 04:54

Well, currently we are not in need of unorganized playtesting, if you mean something like this. There are several nasty bugs, which are being solved in a special team working in a common chat, and this team is Russian, because it's easier for me to parse reports that way. When the crashes are fixed, it's only graphics work left.

The release is happening pretty soon (I hope that in 1 month, but it depends not only on me), so everyone will be free to record anything when the mod is released.

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