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 Seventh creature for Wizard

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Uhm
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PostSubject: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 00:31

I think we should discuss our current choice of Gnome.

Agar's invention

Dr Slash's proposition

He's a bit wrong here in my opinion. He is too similar to both Halfling and Wizard, looks like an intermediate stage between them. I don't see him running through the whole map and attacking with a dagger - I guess he will use magic, so probably he will be a fourth shooter! He also doesn't fit level 3, he sticks level 1 just like Halfling.

Docent Picolan idea

It's better, I think, but still not too diversified from lvl 1 and 6. Shooting magician.

Don't understand me wrong, I would be glad to see both gnomes in-game. They just don't fit Wizard's line-up.

Manticore from Docent Picolan

Very, very nice concept, seems like a strong four level unit, perfectly filling blank.

Still I am wondering, whether wouldn't it be better to dig up an older concept:



Simple, brutal force, no funny special abilities. Crushing, smashing and killing with smile on his face. He's got my full support Razz
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Sir Albe
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 02:17

To me there is no good choice here. The gnome is a supposed to be melee (ranged would make it too many shooting creatures in wizard) and he seems a bit misplaced for that role. It wouldn't help to move him to another level, it is the whole concept of a melee gnome that doesn't do it.

The (other) mage is not a better choice though he is way too similar with the lvl 6 mage. There is not enough difference between them. At least the gnome was of a different race than the lvl 6 mage (considered human).

Manticore is not the best choice either since it is a fabel creature (loin, bat) which belongs mostly to warlock (the opposite of the wizard class) and has not home in wastlelands but rather caves. That is why it belongs to the Dungeon alignment in later games. It is a chaotic creature not belonging in the order of the wizard.

About the rakshasa I am also not very fond. It is a bit better than the manticore, since it is not as cryptic a fabel creature (lion, human) and is more civilized so to say (doesn't live in caves and is closer to human).

I would cast my vote for gnome and then rakshasa, but I don't find any of these choices perfect.


Last edited by Sir Albe on 2016-01-27, 23:09; edited 1 time in total
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YhyJasne
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 02:37

Here is my concept of upgraded worm/creeper/I don't know the name. Nonupgraded version will have no wings/sting.  It could be a creature made in alchemy lab with use of wizard magic. The colours could be brownish/greenish/yellowish. Gosh I didn't draw for long. I have several more concepts. If you want, I might draw them. This includes: homunculus, something like a big jellyfish monster, and another arthropod
Stats for creeper: above medicore hp, medicore damage, medium speed, higher def than att, melee
For upgrade could be a little bit faster and having a bit more damage and like +5hp
Spoiler:
 
Sorry for quality. I can't find cable to my printer.
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 04:31

wow, looks really good! I can imagine it in h2 pixel art.

Does it have some special abilities ? I get a poison/disease wibe from it.

As for the lineup, I think the Wizard from Docent Picolan is best. It fits the narrative to having more than one wizard in the wizard tower. It's also very well done. I have been thinking about H2 creature concepts and this could fit one of my ideas. Make him a buffer/debuffer and make him cast spells accoutering to the number on units in the stack.

For example: Buffer: 1 unit casts lvl 1 haste,15,lvl 2 haste,40 lvl 3 haste, 60 Casts lvl 1 prayer, 100 lvl 2 prayer,175 lvl 3 prayer.
Same goes for debuff(he can even cast more than 1 spell, lets say slow and sorrow)

the catch is, each spell only lasts one round, so you need to plan it properly! It also adds a lot of strategy,splitting up stacks so you get the buffs/debuffs you need.

That's just an opinion though, when it comes to art, I think all of them look good and with a bit of work they can find a place in this mod, even if as neutral creatures.
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YhyJasne
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 04:45

robizeratul wrote:
Make him a buffer/debuffer and make him cast spells accoutering to the number on units in the stack.  
 
For example: Buffer: 1 unit casts lvl 1 haste,15,lvl 2 haste,40 lvl 3 haste, 60 Casts lvl 1 prayer, 100 lvl 2 prayer,175 lvl 3 prayer.  
Same goes for  debuff(he can even cast more than 1 spell, lets say slow and sorrow)

I don't know, seems like a bad idea. Hard to code, really unintuitive (you need to remember exact values), makes snowballing effect and will make more problems than fun imo. As a caster (of one or random spell, not dependent on creature amount), it's already implemented and works quite ok. So a caster for wizard is I think welcome, but not in this form.
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YhyJasne
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 05:43

I drew my concept of homunculus. I don't know if it isn't too uncanny, cause heroes is considered a game also for younger playerbase. Tell me what you think.
Stats: actually medium with no special abilities lol upgrade? no idea. darker skin. more medium stats.
Spoiler:
 
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robizeratul
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 10:05

hmm, I know there was a script for WOG, where basically the more creatures you had the more bonus stats you received( something like +1 dmg for each 10 stacks,for a maximum of +5)

On the intuitive part, maybe it can be simplified, just cast buffs instead. and when clicking on a hero so you can cast it ( like the genies from heroes 3) show what level is the spell.

If it's possible though, only an idea.
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YhyJasne
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 11:30

NVM about snowball effect. I forgot Archangels resurrect depends on their amount. Well I'm okay with giving special abilities, just please, don't make overpowered units like those WoG casters, they're so disgusting. I would like to see weak creatures with casting ability over OP ranged mage level 3 mass buff caster.
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-27, 23:38

Have it to be a mystic creature?

I don´t know, but in my opinion, the fact that the Wizards use Titans, Golems and Rocs, makes them already to a very...magic, sorry i can´t find another word, faction.

When it have to be a Tier 3/4 Creature, why it shouldn´t be a simply guardpost? The Wizards can´t fill up their ranks with only magical constructs and a sort of beasts (halflings belong to no of these categories).

I am not the best person for drawing, but a fighter with sword and staff, an apprentice, who is lured by the promise of power and magic (studying in one of the wizard-citys) could be the creature you are searching for. Maybe he can cast one lightning bolt per fight or something like that, as a special?
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Uhm
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-28, 09:55

Talanin wrote:
I don´t know, but in my opinion, the fact that the Wizards use Titans, Golems and Rocs, makes them already to a very...magic, sorry i can´t find another word, faction.

Lol, Necromancer is very dead, Sorceress very woodsy, Knight very human and Barbarian is very... barbarian fraction Razz  Heroes fractions were always overdrawn. And this is the way it is meant to be. I remember, that I was a bit disapointed, when HoTA team released their Cove for the first time. They were able to add any fantastic, water-connected creature they could imagine. And instead they added three new humans...

We already have Wizard fighting on a battlefield. And one more heading his army, casting deadly spells from his horse. I think, that we should look for something different. Not necessarily twisted effect of magical experiments, but something original, matching existing units. I was very pleased with hippogriff, it needed only small improvements. Well, fortune stopped smiling on him Razz

@Yhyjasne
He seems to be not very strong for fight. He should be bigger, stronger, more fearsome Twisted Evil . Flesh Atronach from Oblivion came to my mind as an example, but you may be right, that H2 creatures shouldn't be horrendous :no:

Spoiler:
 
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Sir Albe
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-28, 10:18

Uhm wrote:
We already have Wizard fighting on a battlefield. And one more heading his army, casting deadly spells from his horse. I think, that we should look for something different. Not necessarily twisted effect of magical experiments, but something original, matching existing units.

Agree. I like hippogriff too, but I doesn't quite fit.


Last edited by Sir Albe on 2016-08-11, 23:34; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-28, 10:52

I would like it to be a mystic creature. At least for lore reasons, this is how I see it:

First 3 creatures are lead by the weaker, more common mage.

The bird and the titan is controlled by the old and strong mage.

The hero controls both mages in battle.

At least, this make sense in my mind!
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-28, 17:31

From what I was able to guess and discuss with some other members of the team, the Gnome currently is the only option to fill the tactical niche. It's a moderate-distance teleporting melee fighter, based over King's Bounty 1990 Gnome.

I must note that the exterior look of the creature can be varied drastically; the tactical niche is prevalent here. Moreover, the current face of the gnome is not that bad. The height can be adjusted as well as the robe color and stuff.

Additional graphics presented in the top post may very well be utilized a little later.

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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-28, 23:46

true, every on of these is of great quality( or it can be great with some work)

Thinking of that, I have a question. How hard it is to animate a creature ? I mean, compared to making it. I'm talking about work hours( on average).
1)how much to make a frame
2)how much to animate the whole thing ?
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-29, 01:54

Haha this is so cool!

If no one minds I'll chip in my 2 cents:

I think the Raks fits better than the others as the Magician is another Wizard, Manticore while I really like it is another flyer and I agree doesn't belong much in that town, and the Gnome may be too similar to Halfling. I think they all look very good though, it's awesome work!

What I would suggest would be to tweak a bit the Raks, maybe remove the sword so he's bare handed and give him four arms. lol
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-29, 19:16

Quote :
How hard it is to animate a creature ? I mean, compared to making it. I'm talking about work hours( on average).
For a user familiar with pixel graphics and general style of VGA games the creation of a creature takes approximately 15-25 hours.
Animation may take twice more time or more.

Depends on a creature, too.

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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-01-29, 23:50

For me it's about five to seven hours for the starting static sprite and ~4 hours per animation later on.

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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-02-01, 19:27

...and 10 hours more for me to bring it to the acceptable state! lol

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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-02-01, 21:24

True true Smile

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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-12-09, 19:15

Although the concept of Gnome seems to be defined at least for v0.8 beta, I should also post here the suggestions from Docent Picolan (HotA Crew). Probably they can initiate some more discussions.

1. "Good" Manticore



In my opinion, this option has some chances. The trouble is that the castle will have 2 mammals and that we have a hybrid in a classic H2 castle, while it is preferable to leave hybrids for Warlock (although we already have an exception of Barbarian's Harpy, but at least Harpies were relative to Barbarians in Heroes 4, and in our case it nicely fits to the gameplay niche).

The gameplay niche of this Manticore is not as good as that of the current Gnome. We don't have many new creatures of 3rd level (but we already have a lot of new 4th level creatures).

The aggressive scorpion tail wouldn't fit the concept of Wizard. It suits more to the Dervish. Probably, we can also try to place this Manticore to the Dervish and see what happens (due to the complications in the development of Dervish's Scorpion).


2. Simple lion without wings:


A somewhat duplicate of the Boar.


3. "Apprentice Wizard"


A somewhat duplicate of the Mage. Yes, it looks a little different nevertheless, and probably could also become a suitable option, but the gameplay niche and the 4th level problem mentioned above still exist.

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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-12-09, 20:19

I have a couple of ideas.

1. Ofc the rakshasa, lion-man with 2 or 4 arms with a lot of swords, just like naga in homm3
2. Naga XD
3. Ratmen or skaven, fast ground unit, living near mages settlements.
IMG:
 
4. Another type of golem probably something that wouldn't be too similar, Im thinking about stone-magnetic animal type like a LIZARD or ELK..? Or like in the img below, horse-bird thingy
IMG:
 
IMG:
 

5. Mana presence, something like a mix of ghost and djinn, dont know how to describe it.. Like the opposite of wraith, magical mana golem what would serve mages, channel their spells and be a little support type, could be cool with a good design, fitting.
IMG:
 
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-12-10, 01:30

All of these were more or less discussed. Naga is a creature from Indian mythology, which is not suitable for Heroes 2, which orients mostly on generic fairy tales and Greek mythology, with some Tolkien flavor on top. Even D&D isn't included for it, but we already had to use some D&D concepts to fill some vacancies. Rakshasa from Heroes 5 isn't a fairy tale concept (classic Indian rakshasa didn't have any visuals, it's simply another version of demon).

An elk or stag would fit more to the Sorceress, and we already have the Boar which already takes the niche of a "simple animal".

Like I said, the current Gnome is the best option, having its minuses and pluses. However, I thought that I must also post Docent Picolan's work in case we will be able to find use to it. I plan to create a demo version of Manticore for the Dervish so we all will be able to see if it fits or not.


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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-12-10, 01:57

Also the upgrade to Manticore (a hybrid but an animal as yet) is not H2-style.
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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-12-10, 02:04

That's fixable. We rarely bring drafts to perfection until we finally decide that they are going to stay in the game. It's too much working hours thrown out otherwise (however, sometimes it happens).

That winged lion costed Docent Picolan about 2 hours which is not so much for such a good result. I would spend no less than 6h on that level of quality. So, 10 hours more and it will fit for sure - right now we just try to estimate.

If you mean upgrading an animal as not fitting H2 style - that's probably true, and it's better to consider an upgradeless creature at first.

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PostSubject: Re: Seventh creature for Wizard   2016-12-10, 02:25

Orzie wrote:
If you mean upgrading an animal as not fitting H2 style - that's probably true, and it's better to consider an upgradeless creature at first.
Exactly.
Obviously, I need to improve my English skill.
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