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 Viking Class - New might class idea

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Would you like to see Viking class in game?
Yes, I will! It looks really interesting
58%
 58% [ 11 ]
No, I won't! It looks just lame
11%
 11% [ 2 ]
Maybe, but a different one
31%
 31% [ 6 ]
Total Votes : 19
 

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NikitaTheTanner
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PostSubject: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-15, 20:13

The Viking faction for Heroes of Might and Magic III: The Succession Wars

The faction is not an official part of the mod development(yet), but it is currently in development by the community. This topic is a constantly updated, nothing here is set in stone. Everyone is welcome to participate in the discussion.



(c)feanor

The Viking - Background Information

Trivia:
 
Background lore:
 
Reasons to make:
 
Pros and cons:
 

The Viking - Gameplay Aspects

Faction lineup:
 
Townscreen and buildings(early concept):
 
Hero exterior:
 
Hero information:
 
Playing style:
 

The Viking - Plot Developments

Campaign story:
 

Other

My initial post (abridged) :
 

Concept art:
 


Last edited by NikitaTheTanner on 2015-10-25, 08:23; edited 11 times in total
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-15, 20:43

Depends on which game you have in mind. Smile

Actually, a new Might-oriented class might work well for Project Ironfist since there is not much lore developments going lately.

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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-15, 23:06

Well, I see you have spent time on this and it is a quite good concept, but there is something about it which keeps me from thinking it belongs in H3SW. First of all the lore is quite difficult to match to your proposal. I am no expert in the classic lore myself, but I am not sure it will have the correct H2-fairy tale feeling to it. Your reasoning behind it being a snow factions is valid, but we will have Wizard towns spawning on random generated maps as well, so the Viking isn't needed to fill out that gap. Being a Dane myself (watch out, vikings are coming!) I also have some issues with the creatures in the line-up.

First of all I don't see gremlins fitting in a line-up that should be based on Norse mythology. It is (from what i know) originating in English folklore and is thus not connected to Norse mythology. Berserkers are fine, but I have again hard to see how werewolves are connected to anything Nordic (Fenrir is just a wof and wouldn't work out either). Bears are fine to me. Snow queens are very interesting because they do come from a Nordic source, but a different one than the Nordic mythology. I guess the Danish author Hans Christian Andersen's fairy tale "The Snow Queen" is the inspiration here. I actually like the concept a lot and it fits the fairy tale environment of H2, but along the units from the Nordic mythology I am not sure it works out. The Yeti doesn't seem to fit at all, sorry to say. It is kind of hard to find something else (since Troll and Giant are taken), but maybe some kind of Einherjar or Jötunn. The Valkyrie is a very good choice of creature. I guess it would work well as a H2 version of an angel without the religious themes being too strong.

The overall gameplay-wise line-up seems good. It do though remind me a bit of both the Sorceress  and the Dervish line-up, but I guess it is hard to find a completely new one that makes sense.

The thing is that we right now have so much going on before we even begin working on the Heretic class, that we will not be able to implement a new class in some time to come. That means you have plenty of time to improve your proposal, but I am unsure whether the whole concept would benefit H3SW.


Last edited by Sir Albe on 2016-08-11, 23:45; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-15, 23:23

Quote :
but we will have Wizard spawning on random generated maps as well
I think we have already made Wasteland his native and spawn terrain actually.

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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-15, 23:25

Oh, well then the DF2 thread needs a little update Wink
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-15, 23:31

Sure. Sometimes I just don't have time to keep things updated.

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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-15, 23:34

We have so much more important stuff to do, so don't bother with that. It was just a little fun comment. I actually also think it would be better to leave the Wizard out of the snow. It is only in H3 it would fit.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 02:59

Personally the Viking faction (just like Kronverk itself) should be in-game, (I voted "Yes, I will! It looks really interesting") however a winter faction like Tower from H3 already have used creature types into H3SW and must be very well organized since Nagas/Naga Queens does not fit the faction, also Genies/Master Genies and such creatures already used to fill other faction line-ups. By starting it as a neutral might based faction will find it's way to H2.

The global map town view looks good with the snow terrain, but almost the entire castle made of wood, need some edit since whenever any player buy the fort of the castle it also cost ores, not just wood, so that's why I think it's irregular.

A H2 style Gremlin and Master Gremlin is a good idea. Just as Gargoyles and Harpies are sort to different towns compare to their H3 creature orgins. The Gremlins fits to any north country, north or south pole or winter towns. The Gremlin and Master Gremlin concept pictures look like russians, but still ok. With that hammer in their hand it has a pretty low chance to make Master Gremlin a shooter. Ratherly he remain a walking ground unit.

The Northman and Berserk are also pretty good ideas for a close range combatant concept. I got the idea for the Berserks to cast Berzerker with 20% chance after attack, I re-consider this idea since Berserks end up to be attacked by the most enemy creature stacks if Berserks become close range units and may become a potential magnet on the battlefield. This ability is only useful in shooter hands or creatures with massive deffense and pretty high health which is impossible for a level 2 creature like Berserk.

The Wolfman and Werewolf are still enough good to take place in Viking faction, however should be able to cast a spell after attack which turns any creature to Werewolves permanently or he can have the ability to turn the Wolves and Dire Wolves into Werevolves in Barbarian faction. The idea is still strange to me.

The Bear and White Bear are the simplest existing ideas ever possible, but may be a good defensive creature in the garrison. If White Bear is renamed to Polar Bear, that fits the creature better, but worse the faction, so I'm not sure about this one.

Snow Maiden and Snow Queen should take place as a shooter/offensive spell caster on the faction line-up. Probably she will be the only shooter on the line-up if the Master Gremlin won't become a shooter. As a lady she definitely has the less deffense skill in the line-up, so just as the Knight faction, all ground creatures available should protect the shooters. (Yea, H2 playstyle)

Bigfoot and Yeti are seem defensive creatures cause of the look of robust bodyshape, but that doesn't mean he should defend in the garrison on the first place, he can have pretty high attack skill next to deffense skill. A very effective later level creature. Arguably the most powerful compare he can be to other factions level 6 creatures except if the H2 pirate town will get the Nixes and Nix Warriors on level 6 or unless Hydras and/or Trolls won't get higher health and deffense.

Valkyrie is a good start, but what will be her upgraded or non-upgraded form? Practically she will be a flyer as I see the concept, reminds me the H3 Castle Angel. Alternatively, she won't have the resurrect ability later, it would be hax against simple creatures on other factions. I guess her damage will be on the top arsenal compare to other level 7 creatures. Similarly will be good against Necromancers just like the H2 Knight Crusaders. Well, still unknown for many aspects, but I quite sure the team will find a good role for her preferences and a good name for her upg/non-upg form.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 04:31

Regarding gremlins, werewolves and yetis.
It is true that they do not fit in strictly Norse theme, but even though it is a major theme for this class it is not the only one. There are several sources of inspiration.
Main theme is North as a general thing.
Gremlins do look Russian. The idea behind it is rather simple gremlins->workshops->good engineers->Russian. Not saying that we have best engineers, but quite a few good ones. Plus it looks really nice on them in my opinion, making them different from Heroes 3, yet recognizable.
If there is any better creature for the role, I would like to hear. Maybe zwergs? But they are not as well known IMHO.
Also, about throwing a hammer. Remember Heroes 3 and huge ball they were throwing? I somehow doubt the hammer is heavier. It is also a reference to the real life sport https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hammer_throw
Werewolves are more of German theme here. German mythology holds a lot in common with Norse mythology, so I think it is fitting in this setting.
Yeti - maybe not the best one, but fits with the snow theme. Maybe a frost giant like Imir would do better, but it might be either complicated or too similar to giant. Yeti is both simple and well-known. Like a cyclop in Barbarian castle, does not fit the theme completely, yet very close to it(Greek myths in fantasy). Could be better options I agree.
As for now I think the concept is interesting enough. Over time I hope it gets more and more development, just like the Witch and Dervish faction.
And as I already mentioned on df2 forums, I understand that 10th class is far from being a priority at the moment, but it would be nice to have a ready concept by the time it becomes. I think there is a lot of potential in this one. It might change over time, but at least there is a concept.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 06:29

It's not that bad idea. It looks much more fresh than another copy of  volcanic inferno. It also fits the lore: Both in H1 and H2 campaigns we visit frozen wastelands on the north of Enroth, inhabited by wild tribes of a Brabarians. What a pity they're wearing brief grassy skirts Razz Vikings (maybe Nords Very Happy ) could greatly fill this void Smile
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 07:01

"Nord" works as well, I just want to avoid too many references to The Elder Scrolls, but it might be a better name.
As for H1 and H2 campaigns - these are likely to remain unchanged either way. I think they are good as they are. But these can be used in the new maps and campaigns, which might take place parallel to the new planned campaigns.
For instance, the Nords can be fighting off a Kreegan invasion to their lands. So you will have to unite the tribes and gather forces. Somehow, that reminds me of HoTA campaign a lot. But it also can be something else.
As for the lore, I would probably like for the Vikings/Nords live on a separate archipelago near Enroth, which is very harsh and inhospitable and thought to be uninhabited by the most. That will explain why they remained unnoticed for a long time.
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PostSubject: Yeti Concept   2015-10-16, 09:32

First concept of Yeti (ignore the left hand bug)
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 10:24

According to the acidcave.net, many years after Reckoning we're visiting some places on Enroth, where we are finding out that... two brothers are fighting each other for succession! (Legends of Might and Magic) We don't know, what happened with Roland and Catherine during Reckoning, but our party meets Nicolai on Axeoth. (MM IX) Considering this and the fact of the Reckoning, I've written a short plot, that can somehow add Vikings to the original plot:

Many people have heard legends about a terrible catastrophe which can be caused by crossing the Sword of Frost and the Armageddon's Blade; yet nobody believed in it. One of few, who realised the consequences of meeting magical swords was Archibald Ironfist. When the rumours about Snow Elf and Barbarian, looking for mighty Sword of Frost turned out to be truth, when two great armies started they march across the whole Antagarich, he took immediate decision. He gather his trusted Necromacers and dark mages from Deyja and they teleported to the Enroth. Leaded by Archibald they started to weave over the Enroth the Ritual of the Void.

When the spell covered the whole continent, Archibald prepared for the second part of his plan: getting rid of King Roland and his son, Nicolai. He convinced the leader of the tail end of the Devils in Kriegspire to attack Castle Ironfist when the Armageddon starts. With Ethric and Agar by his side, he started to spread terror near the Free Haven and Darkmoor. King Roland set off with his best knights to cut down the undead hordes. But the necromancers ordered his minions to avoid fight and move to the south, to the Mire of the Damned. Roland was determined to catch them and bring peace to his people. He didn't know, that the Mire of the Damned wasn't embraced by the safe field of the Ritual of the Void.

It happened at night (Gelu fought with Kilgor by day, so if Enroth lies on the second hemisphere it should be truth ;P) Terrible fire consumed king's warcamp. We don't know what came about King Roland. We can suppose that he died in the rampant storm of inferno.

Short time Armageddon had started, Devils rushed Castle Ironfist. Meanwhile Archibald and his best Warlocks casted Lloyd's Beacon and teleported to the library, where many years ago Roland's wizards turned him into the stone...

Of course Archibald failed to capture Nicolai, (probably angels saved him and took him to the portal to Axeoth). Still, our favourite was a step from the crown. Here I've got dilemma: should he claim himself as a king and force subjects to serve him, or rather rule backstage with marionette man? (it can be also some kind of illusion of Nicolai. And: nobody will see young prince, but still he will be ruling his kingdom Wink )

Some time later young Viking convinces his Brothers to stand against Bad King. Soon he will discover that his mother was a daughter of Slayer and Roland met her years before his marriage with Catherine. Very Happy

So, the War for Succession has Begun!

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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 11:24

Thank you for your support and the ideas, but I think that the new campaigns will take place during MMIV Mandate of Heaven timeline, so we should try and tie the Viking into it or maybe slightly later. But any proposals are appreciated. Maybe I misunderstood something, I am not too strong in MM lore.

Geographically speaking I think that the Viking should either reside in hard to reach mountains of Frozen Highlands or even further north, on the coast of Enroth or islands north of it.
Yeti slightly improved:
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 18:46

I like the most an idea of Vikings living on a northern shore of Enroth, but as You mentioned, there is also possibility of placing them further to the north:

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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 19:17

Yes, thank you. My only concern is what there are no mentions of Vikings in the lore, but I think it can be easily explained by them being really hard to reach. And people who did in fact see them, maybe during a raid, just mistook them for the Barbarians.
While Snow queens and their Yetis have only joined the army of the Viking, because of imminent danger. Valkyries as well also joined them recently. So it is sort of United North army, which united to fight the invasion of their land.
I suspect it is easiest to make the invasion by the Kreegans, who plan to find some sort of ancient relict on the islands and destroy everything that stands in their way.
I think something like that will do for the lore background.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 21:32

Hiya, friends!

Nikita, I love the idea of a Northern-Viking faction. Just a suggestion: I would extract the dwarves from the Sorceress castle in order to integrate them into this new proposal. I deeply think that this is gonna be for the best.

Here're my drafts:


The mighty bear:




And my version of the yeti, inspired in HOMM I's ogres and HOMM III's Ancient Behemoths.





One of my main worries sketching is to be unfaithful toward the saga's artistic line-up, and specially the first and second installments. That's why I need to go into every single detail regarding the old sprites, as well as comparing my creations with them all the time. It's exhausting!  🇳🇴

By the way, I ask you to replace my previous bear with this one. If you like the concept, I'll upload more sprites in the next days.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 23:18

Quote :
I would extract the dwarves from the Sorceress castle in order to integrate them into this new proposal. I deeply think that this is gonna be for the best.
Automatically inacceptable for H3SW if we speak for H3SW. Smile

And hey, nice Yeti btw. Good for the highest creature tier.

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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-16, 23:44

Quote :
Automatically inacceptable for H3SW if we speak for H3SW. Smile

Fine, just a suggestion.

Quote :
And hey, nice Yeti btw. Good for the highest creature tier.

Thanks!

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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-17, 01:32

It is nice to see the Yeti improves each day. The bear still looks better and it's closer to it's wished H2 look than Yeti, but all is not lost that is delayed.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-17, 02:22

Thank you tophatchild!
I must admit, I am impressed by the speed and quality of your work. You are a much better pixel artist than me, that's for sure Wink
The bear looks really great! My only concern for the time are the red eyes, which might not fit other colors of the town too much. I might try to change them myself, but apart from that - it is exactly what we need! The bear is iconic symbol of the North, it should be present in game one way or another in my opinion.
Regarding Yeti - once again a great art. Here my main concern is what it looks more like Heroes 1 unit, probably because the head is so big. It also looks not much like a cliche Yeti character, which is important since it should be recognizable even without the name.
Yeti 1
Yeti 2
If you can - try to bring it closer to a bit closer to the concept. Even though I must admit this version looks really cool! (as well as very well drawn) We can also try and adapt it as a sort of frost giant, though it needs good name and concept

Easiest way to compare your works with the game characters is by taking original creatures and putting them side by side with your works. Your sprites are actually much bigger than original ones, you can probably make them smaller, so they take less time. Original sprites

Bear and hydra. And bear is planned to be tier 4 creature, while hydra is tier 6.

Regarding creature colours for the moment(my vision):
Blue, brown, grey and white are most common
Indigo, aquamarine, yellow and gold - common elements
Additional colors where necessary (human skin, etc.)
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-17, 09:09

I've very slightly edited the bear and changed its scale. I think it fits better like that, but now he lost a lot of the quality, because of the shrinking.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-17, 09:38

First of all, I truly appreciate the kind words, Nikita! For an artist, I mean, a traditional painter as happen to be me, 2d pixel art is relatively easy... The hairy part is creating a model that matches 100 % Heroes II's artistic line-up, as I said. Most part of the time I've spent erasing drafts rather than drawing, so the yeti you proposed has to gather these two conditions: being H2-ish and close to the archetype you pointed out.

NikitaTheTanner wrote:

My only concern for the time are the red eyes

No problem. What colour do you have in mind? Yellow, white?

We can also try and adapt it as a sort of frost giant, though it needs good name and concept

Yeah! I totally endorse the option. A new cool neutral creature.

Regarding creature colours for the moment(my vision):
Blue, brown, grey and white are most common
Indigo, aquamarine, yellow and gold - common elements
Additional colors where necessary (human skin, etc.)

I'll keep that in mind. I was gonna ask you about it, actually.


Finally, I did scale the bear over myself and certainly it went "depixelated", but well, not the biggest issue right now, you know. Be cool, I'll fix it once I'll go over the rest of the creatures and some other stuff, such as the castle's "skyline". I'll do it that way for avoiding the boredom.

My first obsession when I start a thing is to make the project appealing to the public, I mean, pretty. So let's go drawing and writing down the story and right after, we come across everything else. Alright?

Oh, one more thing! In my humble opinion, the further line-ups should be debated and voted among the fellows here, otherwise it may turn out to be a "personalized undertaking", so to speak, which is paradoxical, considering it's a shared task Wink What do you think?
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-17, 12:18

Quote :
No problem. What colour do you have in mind? Yellow, white?
At the moment, I am thinking of black or dark grey eyes for the bear, because I don't want it to appear too aggressive. IMO it should be neutral, just a wild animal. And real life bears usually have black/dark brown eyes. But that is only my vision.
What do you think?
Bear:
 

Quote :
Yeah! I totally endorse the option. A new cool neutral creature.
In that case we need to follow the guide lines. The project is very strict when it comes to adding new stuff, everything new should follow the style and concept of original game, it is sometimes hard to achieve. I'll elaborate on it later.

Quote :
I'll keep that in mind. I was gonna ask you about it, actually.
Again, that is how I see it. If you have proposals - we can talk about it and change it. I think such colour palette suits the class and is relatively new. In original game white/grey colour is mostly seen in Wizard line up, so it should not be too repetitive as long as we add more blue and keep it fresh. Plus the creatures themselves should be all slightly different, while following some basic colour rules.

And it brings up to your last, but not the least point:
Quote :
the further line-ups should be debated and voted among the fellows here
Definitely, I agree 100% percent on it. I do not own this new class, I've only proposed the idea. If anyone has to say anything on how to improve it, I am always open for the discussion. Anything is open for the debate: class name, lore, creatures, town, etc.

At the moment I think the line up I came up with is pretty solid. It has common theme, the creatures are partially interconnected(White Bear and Snow Queen, Berserk and Werewolf). I also more or less have an idea how a townscreen could look like, although I can't draw it myself, I am doing a sketch.

But if you have anything you want to be seen - propose it. I might argue with you, but promise to remain professional. If your proposal makes sense and fits the game better, then we should make the change. There is nothing wrong with it, I am actually a bit worried of a lack of constructive criticism(there was some, but without anything proposed)

Right now new possible class is far away from the main focus of the mod developers, but I am hoping that if we can create a plausible concept with good art, it might potentially make it into the game. I really wish to see a snow based faction in game.

Regarding the proposals, there are quite strict guidelines. You can probably find them somewhere on the forum, but the main ideas are:
1) Simple and cliche(everything must be simple, like in Heroes 2)
That means complicated stuff like Nagas, Bear riders, etc. is not allowed.
2) No repetition of Heroes 2
The classic is to remain unchanged and everything new must be really new.
3) Fit both the game and the class
The game has a fairytale setting and atmosphere, which should be maintained at all costs. New creatures should fit the game atmosphere, but also fit the castle they are assigned to.

If you can follow these guidelines, every new proposal is welcome. Even if you can't it is okay, but we need to make it work, so I encourage you to follow them. I will also give my feedback, but you can disagree with me on something. As long as we can make the best possible for the Viking/Nord class it's all good.
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PostSubject: Re: Viking Class - New might class idea   2015-10-17, 17:38

tophatchild wrote:
First of all, I truly appreciate the kind words, Nikita! For an artist, I mean, a traditional painter as happen to be me, 2d pixel art is relatively easy... The hairy part is creating a model that matches 100 % Heroes II's artistic line-up, as I said. Most part of the time I've spent erasing drafts rather than drawing, so the yeti you proposed has to gather these two conditions: being H2-ish and close to the archetype you pointed out.

Let me clarify a little. Heroes 2 graphic style, which appears to be classic VGA 256-color graphics, is not easy at any case.
It requires certain creature proportions, color transitions, palette control, and creature concept where each element is displayed in the most common and understandable way. Even the Phoenix was completely overhauled twice before approval for the original game.


Heroes 2 creatures are in fact composed of many elements so that they have 1-2 base colors and 2-4 decorative colors.

Your draft requires about 8 hours more to complete, and that's gonna only be the static form. Moreover, it is composed of only 1 main color and no decorative colors, which is a large disadvantage not allowing this creature to fit the style. I wouldn't call that easy at all.


Uhm wrote:
It's not that bad idea. It looks much more fresh than another copy of  volcanic inferno. It also fits the lore: Both in H1 and H2 campaigns we visit frozen wastelands on the north of Enroth, inhabited by wild tribes of a Brabarians. What a pity they're wearing brief grassy skirts Razz Vikings (maybe Nords Very Happy ) could greatly fill this void Smile
We are not going to make an "another copy of volcanic inferno". Our Heretic will be drastically different (I must admit I don't love H3 Inferno concept) and composed of different creatures - the Kreegans and their minions who came to Enroth from another world. I don't know if you are aware of their biology, but I make you sure that the Heretic concept is going to be something new. Even despite the fact that it's likely to be placed on lava (in the gameplay and atmosphere we need a faction like that).

The Viking faction doesn't fit the lore simply because Barbarians already said to live in the northern regions of Krashaw, and the Viking is already a copy of a Barbarian. Half of the lineup is not H2-ish, while the other half doesn't go well with each other (werewolf+yeti+bear).
I must also note that the concept of the project is already thought about until v3.0, and the approximate lore and other plans are also already developed. So that the Viking is very unlikely to appear in H3SW even if it is ready, simply because we cannot have 10th or 11th town, but also for many other reasons, including the lack of atmosphere for the snow castle (i.e. snow is not an independent terrain from the point of atmosphere, every terrain can have snow on it). If we can add something, it doesn't mean we should.

Still, there are such projects as Project Ironfist which drastically need new concepts (and artists in general) to fill the gaps.

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