H3SW: Battle system?

Everyone is welcome to vote and express thoughts.

Personally, I am myself a big fan of Heroes 2 battle system. In my opinion it is more dynamic and provides more diversity in battles unlike Heroes 3 where shooters became a must-have. I also dislike the Wait button in Heroes 3 because it becomes too over-used. For your interest, Heroes 2 was also planned to have the Wait button (see Museum). With Heroes 2 battle system the Wait button would greatly increase the tactical value of battles and it will obviously not be used in 99% of situations.

However, in H3SW we have H3 scaled battlefields (larger) and several other specific feats which made its gameplay even more popular I guess. Also, I have no info about the computer AI and its behavior in case of changing the battle mechanics. Perhaps feanor knows more.

I must also note that we are unlikely to have 2 battle systems at once because both intend their own creature balance, price balance and other aspects. I don't know if it's possible to store 2 options in the game data, so here let's discuss the preferable option for now.

For me the biggest trouble is the size of the battlefield. Originally it was 11 hex wide and 9 deep, in H3 - 15 wide and 11 deep. Creatures and obstacles seems to be too small for battlefield, another problem are fliers - when they can fly through the whole field, they can't receive aid for several turns so they lose their natural advantage as well as when they're slower. If it could be possible, I would check course of battle on smaller battlefield - maybe 13 wide, 10 deep? I was also thinking about resigning from one slot, so it would be necessary to leave one stack in garrison.

Don't forget that we can easily regulate the creature speed parameters so ground creatures can receive a buff in movement. It can be a compromise - keeping Heroes 2 statistics everywhere is not going to do any good. With the larger field there still can be a nice variety for tactics.

This topic might be the only one where I don't quite agree with you guys. I like the H3 battle system the most. I do agree with you Orzie on all you points about the H3 system, but I still favor it for the mod. I like that fliers are different in their movement range, so only the fastest fliers can hit the enemy in its first turn. It makes flyers closer to the ground units when their are not all able to fly to any hex on the battlefield. Also all my calculations (which I still save until it is needed) is based on the H3 system. I would not be able to use much of it if we chose the H2 system. Furthermore, switching to the H2 system will mean either that alignments like the Knight and Barbarian are buffed or that alignment like Warlock is nerfed. I think it would bring big changes to the stats of the creatures if we chose the H2 system since Warlocks would be even stronger with it instead of the H3 system. It could mean that the feel of the Warlock is lost if he is nerfed into nothing to compensate for 3 flying units. That it just my thought.

Point taken. You also forgot to mention one more advantage of H3 system - it is already implemented and working.
v0.8 will surely have this battle system since we wouldn't have time for stuff like that anyway.

And yeah, the more comments from fellow Enrothians - the better.

Orzie wrote:

Point taken. You also forgot to mention one more advantage of H3 system - it is already implemented and working.

Haha, true that. I forgot

Uhm wrote:

For me the biggest trouble is the size of the battlefield. Originally it was 11 hex wide and 9 deep, in H3 - 15 wide and 11 deep. Creatures and obstacles seems to be too small for battlefield, another problem are fliers - when they can fly through the whole field, they can't receive aid for several turns so they lose their natural advantage as well as when they're slower. If it could be possible, I would check course of battle on smaller battlefield - maybe 13 wide, 10 deep? I was also thinking about resigning from one slot, so it would be necessary to leave one stack in garrison.

I think, we can regulate it by making creatures spawn nearer to the center of battlefield


and, maybe, increasing direct shooting range up to 12 hexes (10 original)

By the way, with this kind of troop positioning on the battlefield has a very nice potential in increasing the number of battle tactics tricks, especially with shooters and ranged penalty. It also raises the value of the Tactics skill where you could move your archers backwards to provide them more time for shooting (yet, the ranged penalty can still exist and meddle with tactical decisions which can be also good and interesting).

What do you guys think?

Even though it is a interesting idea I have to say that I don't really like it. What good thing would come out of moving the creatures closer to the middle of the battlefield when the battle begins? H3 expanded the battle filed for the opportunity to take 7 creatures with you in battle without having the standing directly adjacent to each other. That could be a disastrous tactics for slow troops if we decided to go with H2 battle map since ranged units would be easier to block and Warlock would again be stronger with dragons breath attack almost every time hitting 2 enemies and hydra's attack hitting multiple creatures when they are so narrowly placed. I can't quite see the idea behind this to be honest.

I agree with that having some space in the back (like said Orzie) to give the ranged stacks more time for shooting, seems to be a great idea.

+ the distance penalty is great, same as flies that are limited by their maximal movement.
And for me, theses 2 must come together or don't be in the game together.

But I agree with Sir Albe; stacks must not start on adjacent hexagons.

So for me, 02 and 14 must be the starting hexagons. (so, just 1 free column from the borders)...
But i wonder if you can change the "Tactics" skill? (or maybe not needed to change?)..Because this skill is directly impacted by that...

I also think that the battlefield should be made smaller. There are actually a few reasons for that. If making it smaller is impossible I fully support feanor's idea of starting closer to the middle. However as it was already stated above units shouldn't be adjacent to each other so I'm not sure how to solve that. Besides, how about filling the space behind the units with obstacles dependent on terrain? Like some forest or mountains. That way we would have original Heroes 2-sized battlefield without any drastic changes. And hey, that would rise a hell lot of possibilities in conjuction with "Remove Obstacle" spell. Would need good balancing though.

As for the reasons why smaller battlefield would be better in my opinion:

*If you guys plan on keeping the original H2 battle system with Wait button it was clearly designed for a smaller battlefield. Simply buffing ground units speed seems lacking and rather "easy way"
*Units are not very big just like in Heroes 2. Even though they are very preety they seem too small on such a huge battlefield combined with higher resolution.
*Big H3 battlefield somewhat lacks spirit of H2 if you ask me.

It seems that we are going to leave H3 battles for the official version of the project.

Yet, I plan to feature "Heroes 2 Battles" gameplay customization option (as a minimod) where will be H2 combat mechanics with H3 battlefield.

I must also note that aside from H2 spirit, we try to make a game which would give players new gaming impressions. I would personally want H2 battles + wait button (just like it was in Heroes 2 beta) and H3 large battlefield.

Moreover, 7 slots and H2 small battlefield do not match.

On the poll, I voted to 'Heroes 3 Battles'. In Heroes 2 it was normal that flyers could got full speed, and shooters had no shooting penalty, because the map itself was much smaller, I guess the walkers, even the very slow category could even easily get across the map in high number since the battlefield is not enough wide to a walker not to get across the map in 3-4 turns, plus there is the easily gained haste spell which just makes the walkers the best survivors in-game. So I guess penalties for Heroes 3 maps are necessary and even important. Heroes 2 and the Hybrid style of gaming won't be balanced and won't access enough creature stacks in the army.

Quote :

Heroes 2 and the Hybrid style of gaming won't be balanced

It can be easily regulated by the speed and other stats. Heroes 3 style will also not be balanced in earlier H3SW builds just because we need to test things.

Any with NO wait ability.
"Wait" is used too much... almost always. It makes combat slow and annoying. Wait also allows "hit&return" and double-strikes. For me it's more of cheating than of tactics.

Frankly I am just against H3 battles because of WAIT abusing. The official release of H3SW will seem to have H3 battles. However, the planned minimod concept may feature an optional gameplay customization mod with new balance and other battle system (with Hall of Fame disabled).

Wait for Heroes 2 is not going to be abused because shooters have no penalty and flyers can fly over the battlefield. So that Wait option has a chance to be finally a good instrument for tactics. Wait was planned even for Heroes 1, and there is an utility which restores it to Heroes 2, but AI doesn't know how to use it so it's fair only for multiplayer games.

Still, I do see the majority desiring H3 combat so it's gonna be implemented on the first place.

Personally, I think the Heroes III combat system improved upon the one in the second game.

I think having the range penalty and the wait button added more to strategic play. I, myself, am a die-hard user of the wait button, and I enjoy having to change my tactics to better deal with my, or the enemy's, archers. Besides...... I think ranged penalty added a necessary buffer to the relentless rain of arrows that were constantly being launched at your archers from across the board, especially concerning those fellows with double shot.

I have to say, when I first tried the third game, and found out my winged militia couldn't fly their farthest, I wasn't to happy about it, but I now think that it was a good idea. It's bad enough that they weren't effected by obstacles, but they could also go where they darn well pleased, making it very difficult to protect your archers, especially since most of the flying creatures are faster than most of the melee units (Keeping centaurs is a chore, for one who enjoys using Warlock). I think, also, adding obvious improvements to the flight distance of higher tier units in the third game, instead of allowing them all to move the same distance regardless, was better, because it was part of the upgrade's worth.



@Orzie,

Perhaps it would be a good idea to allow the player the choice of choosing his desired combat system in the game menu? Maybe have an option on the screen where you can choose your castle and difficulty settings.

The poll has only got more votes for H3 system that last days... I suppose we stick to it for now and for the v.0.8 beta?

I guess so. I never had any doubts that people would choose H3 system (simply because H3 fans are in the majority), but the project needs live community.

The other options for battle system may still be developed as Era downloadable minimods. More info later.

Yeah, I've also voted for the H3 system. As much as I find it imperfect and more tedious than H2, I also must admit that it is well balanced. There are still some flows here and there, but overall balance is great.

Orzie wrote:

The other options for battle system may still be developed as Era downloadable minimods. More info later.

That's pretty cool, I'll be sure to try it out when/if out.

I voted Heroes 3 Battles, but that's mainly because I'm not sure how this hybrid version de facto will be.
This means that the question asked, is a bit too difficult to answer for me.

I just wanted to say, that hybrid system could be the optimal way to go with this mod. Firstly, because it adds strategic aspect to h2 combat, which was implemented and was great in h3. Secondly, no range penalty and long distance flyers are balanced in terms of h2 units power. We have h2 monster statistics and they need to stay on same power level as they are. What is happening to the speed of units? From what I know the map is 4 hexes wider right?

Well, basically I was for the hybrid too, but it seems that it will be left as option for ERA minimod manager for now.

That is best, maybe an explanation on the main page of the mod so new players understand the differences/features of this mod. There are some battle systems that I wouldn't enjoy playing, but it's very good there will be options when it's done!