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 H3SW: General Graphics discussion

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Galaad
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-14, 08:15

If my opinion is worth anything I too think the Manticore shouldn't sit. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-14, 08:23

Galaad wrote:
If my opinion is worth anything I too think the Manticore shouldn't sit. Smile

Of course it is, dear Galaad Gold coins Gold coins Gold coins Very Happy
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-14, 10:07

I also think that these new wings look ok. I've compared them to the roc ones and they're good for me, not too similar.
About manticore - no.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-14, 18:55

Let's add the wings, then. However, I'm against leaving the pants like that, they must be at least adjusted to the color of the wings, or to the color of Troll's clothes.

The Harpy may also need some adjustments over the wings also.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-20, 23:37

Current situation with the Dervish townscreen by Agar. Now all preliminary work in 3D can be considered finished and it's only 2D treatment left, to make the specific grainy style of Heroes 2 and make some corrections for the position of buildings.


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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 00:49

Incredible work! I cannot wait to see it with textures in the mod Very Happy Great job Agar!

EDIT: Just notice; why is the wagon camp "blocking" the road?


Last edited by Sir Albe on 2017-02-21, 04:00; edited 1 time in total
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 02:55

I think that this hole is too big, without it there will be a lot of blank space while trading post is very small. Image is left-heavy also which is not good imo. We'll see.

PS It is often easier to see mistakes when you flip the image
SEE HERE:
 
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 03:07

What trading post do you actually mean? The Marketplace (near the castle entrance) is the largest of all marketplaces in the game, and this will require some treatment too.

Anyways, it has always been true that the upper left side is too heavy. This will supposedly be solved via manipulation with the palm trees on the background.
Also note that the whole visible area will be shifted in that way so there will be less visible sand and more visible skies, so don't worry. The lower left side feels empty so something will be done there as well.

I'm also going to post the Knight townscreen update here in a few days, been working on it extensively.

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PostSubject: Harpy   2017-02-21, 05:31

I really like your work so far, the treant movement is quite perfect. If I may, I think the main problem with harpy is that she lacks meaning. I study culture at a univerity, and from what I know, In medieval times creatures were ussually used as allegories. You can see that being used in Heroes II with wolves, which were more or less allegory of hunger that cannot be fullfilled. Harpies were present in Dante's Comedy, where you could say they were propably allegories of cruelty. The other meanings you could consider from what I read would be fury or lust. Here is my quick proposition with a more heraldic stance, I used textures from other creatures (didn't have much time, she could be too similar to the gargoyle though):



There was also a manticore-like creature in Dante's Comedy. It was an allegory of deceit - it had a face of a respectable bearded man, with a tail of a scorpion behind its back. You could consider some changes to your manticore - you could make a gradual color fade towards its back for example. Also, to make it more heraldic, you could put its head up a little, like in the old manticore. Also its paws could be spread apart a bit more.



As for the planned Heretic faction, it could be hard to make it right in this game. The Warlock is already very satanic in my opinion. In medieval times, hell was considered a rather icy place. Centaurs and a minotaur were guardians of Hell in the Comedy, also there was a curse which transformed humans into masses of snakes. In the Bible, the Beast had seven heads. And the Dragon is the personification of the devil.

The Satyr was more or less seen as a demon, which would make it fit more with the Warlock or even Witch. Instead of the Satyr, you could consider giving Sorceress a water-themed creature, to make her navigation more in place - could be a nymph or a mermaid.

I hope this helps, feel free not to bother Smile
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 06:00

Quote :
If I may, I think the main problem with harpy is that she lacks meaning. I study culture at a univerity, and from what I know, In medieval times creatures were ussually used as allegories.
Quote :
Instead of the Satyr, you could consider giving Sorceress a water-themed creature, to make her navigation more in place - could be a nymph or a mermaid.
I would not recommend trying to operate with real life history and mythology in the case of Heroes 2. It's a simple fairy-tale game where the developers just put what they seemed right, orienting on a bit childish, but nevertheless harmonic sense of beauty. Trying to find any logic in Heroes 2 lineups is a dead end - the developers didn't have any, they just put what they liked (but there are some anchors for the factions though, like the Celtic/Anglo-Saxon origin of many Sorceress concepts or Anglo-Saxon medieval theme of the Knight). What's important is the visual image of a creature and the faction in general. Our choices fit the visuals and more or less solve the gameplay problems like a necessity of adding a creature and providing it a niche in the gameplay characteristic for that faction. Adding any kind of mermaid to a Sorceress is a big no no simply because there is no place for blue gamma in its lineup. A Dryad or something like that could be a more fitting variant, but I don't feel it necessary to change everything once again. Satyr is a creature from Heroes IV and it has been proven to fit in any kind of forest-themed faction in HoMM series.

Quote :
As for the planned Heretic faction, it could be hard to make it right in this game. The Warlock is already very satanic in my opinion.
Yes, the Heretic is the hardest nut to crack, and fortunately its development is postponed. I already explained that Heroes 2 didn't need new factions, so a new faction is more a forced decision, because people seek for new stuff, and new faction is one of the key features in the development of an entirely new storyline.

Quote :
EDIT: Just notice; why is the wagon camp "blocking" the road?
It's a moving structure anyway Smile
But the destiny of the roads is not 100% determined. We will see how things will go during 2D treatment.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 07:32

Okay, thanks for the answer and I understand. Although I would say that this game is different from its successors, it seems the most logical and well thought game of the series.
Anyway I hope all the best for the project Smile

Edit: I guess what I meant to say is that as you know, knowing Lord of the Rings helps understanding this game, so does knowing Bible and so does knowing Dante's Comedy. Even though all of the things in this game might be just someone's hunch, it's different when you know and understand different things.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 09:30

Orothin wrote:
Okay, thanks for the answer and I understand. Although I would say that this game is different from its successors, it seems the most logical and well thought game of the series.
Anyway I hope all the best for the project Smile

Edit: I guess what I meant to say is that as you know, knowing Lord of the Rings helps understanding this game, so does knowing Bible and so does knowing Dante's Comedy. Even though all of the things in this game might be just someone's hunch, it's different when you know and understand different things.

I see what you mean. The harpy however wasn't made up by Dante, but her origin probably lies in ancient Greece. They appeared in the Odyssey and later in the Aeneis. In my mind these creatures look vicious and I would draw them as you did. Her current posture doesn't really tell that story. She actually looks rather sophisticated and calmly waiting for her turn to come.

This, however, doesn't need to be a problem. An ogre for example, while in my opinion being a dumb angry knucklehead, is very stoic and calm in H2. I actually really like the ogre portrayed in H2, because he is so calm and cool.

That being said, I really like the current harpy, but if I had anything to say in it, I would curve her back a bit and put her in the position you put her in. Like she's actively preying for easy flesh to scoop.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 14:58

The Harpy was present even in the times of Babylon or somewhere close to it. That doesn't matter though, because what's important for us is the Greek imagination of it which became part of popular culture (one of the strongest Heroes 2 anchors aside from Dungeons&Dragons). I agree that the posture may be changed though, and I am going to adjust it after I deal with the Knight townscreen.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-21, 21:30

I see you're already juggling with a lot of balls, and yet we keep throwing more balls (ideas) at you guys. I have a lot of respect for the way you keep replying politely. Much love
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-22, 09:17

It is true that the harpy has different origin. But in the middle ages Christians considered greek culture as pagan for a long time. Heroes II is set in pseudomedieval time - most of the greek creatures belong to Warlock for a reason. There is only one greek-inspired creature in the good classes, and I believe it's only there because someone played too much Master of Magic Wink
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-22, 14:26

Orothin wrote:
It is true that the harpy has different origin. But in the middle ages Christians considered greek culture as pagan for a long time. Heroes II is set in pseudomedieval time - most of the greek creatures belong to Warlock for a reason. There is only one greek-inspired creature in the good classes, and I believe it's only there because someone played too much Master of Magic Wink
Invalid argument, sorry. The concept of the Warlock is horrible hybrids which were result of experiments with people, animals and magic, with the addition of some powerful beasts which fit quite fine. There is also not any "pseudomedieval time" for Heroes 2 - look at the Jewish/Tolkien Wizard or Necromancer made up over a 20th century TV show. There is not any historical logic, there are only visuals and some common principles. Harpies in Heroes IV are an additional anchor for us, they solve many problems and I'm not even going to discuss this. The Medusas are also not part of Warlock's domain because there was no place for it and because it looks too much like Hydra already. Pretty sure it was added to neutrals simply because NWC said "hey, we have minotaurs and centaurs, but don't have medusas while they are no less cliched fantasy creatures - let's add them, it could be fun". They absolutely didn't care to differentiate apples from pears or not.

The Barbarian also has Greek Cyclops as well as Sorceress has Greek Phoenix. This is not explained with "pagan" attribute of Greek mythology. Greek mythology is the very basis of old and today's fantasy. We try to make the game looking more or less NWC-styled and don't care for solely historical accuracy - there wasn't any in the original game.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-22, 22:08

I am not saying what You are doing is wrong. It is all propably right. But it doesn't mean that's all there is to it. Even if they did fantasy cliches without thinking much about it, those cliches came from some place that's not totally random. Some people even study pop-culture. This game doesn't necessarily take only from the Might & Magic universe or from Dungeons & Dragons. It could be all used and connected. The more you know the better you understand it.

Also Heroes II takes much inspiration from Master of Magic, which in turn takes much from Magic: the Gathering. Heroes III goes the Dungeons & Drugons route more, while Heroes IV brings back much of the MoM aspect to it. If you play with halflings in Master of Magic and summon the Storm Giants, it already feels much like the Wizard class.

As a side note, the phoenix is hardly greek, and in the middle ages it could have been associated with Christ due to its rebirth ability. But in its fairy-tale aspect it propably is more like the Russian Firebirds you propably know.

And i'm not here to disprove your mod. You know something I don't and there's a chance I know something you don't. I understand you already have too much work.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-23, 00:43

Quote :
It could be all used and connected. The more you know the better you understand it.
The only thing I really didn't know about Heroes 2 until recently is the fact that the pig-shaped face of the Orc comes from Dungeons&Dragons, while all that you say is not a new information to me. Aside from mythological precision there are such things as gameplay and the associated gameplay problems caused by the transition from Heroes 2 game rules to Heroes 3 games rules (7 tiers per faction instead of 6 tiers summarize it all up). Sometimes we have to take that into account if we are trying to make a game, because it's an equation with more than 1 unknown variables. Don't worry, I am not as dumb in mythology as it may seem.

If I must explain my decisions in a more detailed way, then:

1. At first there was a principle "all Greek hybrids go to Warlock". There are, however, too many hybrids which totally fit (Harpy introduced in Heroes 3, Basilisk introduced in Heroes 3, Cockatrice not introduced to the series before, etc.) Even the Manticore, though not a Greek concept, but also proven to be fitting enough to the setting thanks to Heroes 3 again, but too less lineup vacancies for the Warlock. At the same time, there was no viable option for the Barbarian, because Nordic assets don't completely fit there since Barbarian's concepts, although being Nordic in the heritage, are being re-imagined plenty of times in the prism of popular culture imagination of such creatures (Trolls, Goblins, Ogres). They are not Nordic anymore, and Yeti or Frost Giant wouldn't look right near them. A human unit such as Berserker was also once considered for the lineup, but the idea didn't cause much enthusiasm - the better option for that name could be the name of a WoG Commander, given that almost all Barbarian heroes are humans too, while the bestiary is non-human. There is a specific feat of Heroes 2 where purely human faction (Knight) opposes a purely non-human faction (Barbarian), and it was beneficial to save this situation, despite the fact that we anyway widened the concept of the game a little and added some human units to other factions as well - but at least we saved the feature for the Knight-Barbarian controversy. Sometimes it's really a combination of "pro" and "contra", and the principle of a lesser evil leading us in development aimed on a "true-NWC" impression. It won't feel "100% NWC", but it will feel good enough anyway.

2. The other principle was "Human-only Knight". After all the struggle it was implemented, although there are still a lot of people who would "advise" to put a Monk (duplicate of the Druid and Mage) or an Angel (a creature from a currently actual religion) in the lineup.

3. Another principle was the maximum inheritance from the closest games of the HoMM and MM series to provide the better look on the gaming universe as whole. That was purposefully made by me as a fan of both series in a desperate attempt to make people know their lore better (there are many HoMM players who don't even know that the universe of their favorite game is not a pure fantasy and this was intended by the developers themselves). Such games are Heroes 1 (but it's anyway identical to Heroes 2), Heroes 3 (more shifted to D&D concepts in some cases) and Might&Magic 6 (looking mostly not like Heroes 2/3, but set on the same continent and even prolonging the storyline of H2). The concepts of MM6, which is prioritized over other games via an obvious reason, also help a lot to solve many gameplay problems like filling the niches dynamically, but this game extends the original concept a little.

4. Another principle was the maximum simplicity and popularity of each added creature, so D&D Owlbears had to go completely. I admit that they were the best looking choice to the Sorceress because they were magical enough to not feel as a filler and 2-squared which was pleasantly looking on the Sorceress's tier 4, but the sprite which was in the game was taken from another game and it was shocking to me when I first posted the screenshots on various info sources and received a lot of negative comments like "What a ghoul sprite from D&D doing in a Heroes game, you thieves?". This is why I decided to struggle for originality and stay in the gaps of the original concept as tight as possible. Another problem with it was the fact that the Owlbear is a creature not mentioned in any popular mythology or fairy tales, being a made up concept of a modern fantasy such as D&D. This is why the amount of D&D in Heroes 2 should have been the least possible, Heroes 2 is a much simpler game than Heroes 3. Pretty sure that there are a lot of people who would easily accept Gorgons and other D&D concepts in Heroes 2, but you can call that my vision.

5. Concerning the argument about Greek Harpy and Greek Satyr going to respective factions: there was an anchor in the shape of Greek Cyclops and Greek Phoenix, so we really didn't break much in the game, we just increased the percentage of Greek concepts in these factions. The Leprechaun (being actually an Anglo-Saxon concept) could also enter Sorceress's lineup, but it's already present in the shape of an adventure map object and thus has less priority. Secrectly, we have a static form of a new neutral Leprechaun already done (v0.9). Satyrs and Leprechauns feel complementing to each other thanks to Heroes 4, so this can also be manipulated somehow.

6. Feel free to make yourself familiar with my previous attempt to deal with criticism on the topic: 1, 2, 3 (see Designer's Note section).

Hope that explains something after all.


Quote :
Also Heroes II takes much inspiration from Master of Magic, which in turn takes much from Magic: the Gathering. Heroes III goes the Dungeons & Drugons route more, while Heroes IV brings back much of the MoM aspect to it. If you play with halflings in Master of Magic and summon the Storm Giants, it already feels much like the Wizard class.
The games which are more strongly based on MOM is Lords of Magic and Age of Wonders. HoMM is a much farther example and doesn't complement much if compared to these games.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-28, 11:20

I will just remind you some stuff since you already know:

Quote :
Satyr is a creature from Heroes IV and it has been proven to fit in any kind of forest-themed faction in HoMM series.
Quote :
Satyrs and Leprechauns feel complementing to each other thanks to Heroes 4, so this can also be manipulated somehow.
Implementing ideas from HoMM IV into the HoMM II universe as they are generally might not work, since HoMM IV seems to have a much more contemporary point of view. Compare the Native American 'Druids' to the Princesses of Heroes II. Even if the creators are not considering how old some concepts are, these concepts are still somewhere in our subconsciousness when we try to make something feel like an old fable. It is generally known that in the Middle Ages packs of hungry wolves would hunt down people in their settlements. They were considered quite evil back then and fit well with other ravaging Barbarian units in HoMM II. Today we don't really see the evil in the wolves anymore, they simply became the creatures of nature. It is of today's achievement that we want to discover our roots more and more, and that we open up to the views of other cultures. You can see that change a little with the placement of Dwarves and Centaurs in Heroes II and IV. This 'change of mind' however is rather an artistic choice than anything else.

I know there are things in HoMM II that break this type of thinking. I should say the HoMM I universe fits this concept much more. The two new factions are a bit different but not entirely, they still feel very conservative compared to their HoMM III/IV versions.

As a side note - a thing you may already know - seems like the two new factions were supposed to fill the roles of the missing Master of Magic/Magic: the Gathering magic types. It's especially visible in the HoMM IV, having the same magic school placement as in the MtG:


Quote :
I would not recommend trying to operate with real life history and mythology in the case of Heroes 2. It's a simple fairy-tale game where the developers just put what they seemed right, orienting on a bit childish, but nevertheless harmonic sense of beauty. Trying to find any logic in Heroes 2 lineups is a dead end - the developers didn't have any, they just put what they liked
It's like saying there is no logic to the evolution, because the evolving beings didn't really know what they were doing.

Quote :
Concerning the argument about Greek Harpy and Greek Satyr going to respective factions: there was an anchor in the shape of Greek Cyclops and Greek Phoenix
Again, the Phoenix could be a special case due to its close appereance to the Firebird, which is a common fairy-tale creature - as you know. The name could have been changed the same way the Frog got changed into a Toad.

Concerning the Satyr though, even if we put its hellish connotations aside, it still hardly fits the Sorceress' line-up. Most of her creatures seem light-hearted and innocent. The Satyrs however (as shown also in the HoMM IV) are mostly trouble-loving, controversial (what are they doing to those Nymphs) and ever-drinking beings. The dwarves already fill the grumpy drunkard niche but they are also small and seem mostly good-hearted (at least in the popular culture). The Satyrs fit the chaotic side of the nature in the HoMM IV, but would have to be too constrained to fit with the Sorceress. As for the Leprechaun, I don't really think this game needs another small humanoid. Consider this propositions:

- Female Satyrs - their fun-loving nature would seem more fitting with the current line-up if they were simply women. It wouldn't be that much of a deal in this game as Trolls are normally rarely seen as females.
- Mermaids - the problem with color of the scales could be fixed by giving them red scales (I haven't seen black-horsed centaurs before), and, if they had tridents, they could have upgrades with blue scales.
- Bears - the Owlbears were indeed most fitting visually with the other creatures. Bears, if done right (as big as possible), could be seen as something more than simple fillers, they also have a strong fairy-tale feeling to them.


And what I meant by using allegories is just so it simplifies things. Allegories are a big part of the fairy-tales, which makes them seem so deceptively simple. If you know the harpy is a cruel being - make her look cruel. Right now she looks more like a sweet teenager.

Quote :
The games which are more strongly based on MOM is Lords of Magic and Age of Wonders. HoMM is a much farther example and doesn't complement much if compared to these games.
Even though other games are based more on Master of Magic, that doesn't mean HoMM II doesn't take anything from it. Much of the visuals look close in both games, which wasn't the case as much in HoMM I. The Giant is almost a copy of the MoM's Storm Giant (unless both games had simillar inspiration sources), even their stats are almost the same - the Storm Giant is a good melee fighter and can throw thunders at its enemies.


Some other similarly-styled units from Master of Magic:


This means your planned cockatrice's look could be based more or less on the MoM's one (I know you want to be original, but this is one is justified):


Quote :
6. Feel free to make yourself familiar with my previous attempt to deal with criticism on the topic: 1, 2, 3 (see Designer's Note section).
And yes, I have already read all those previous posts. I follow this project quite closely since before your last playable version, when there were evil eyes and giant spiders on the promo screenshots. And I wouldn't really post this kind of opinions without thinking it could be at least somewhat helpful.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-02-28, 15:51

Quote :
This means your planned cockatrice's look could be based more or less on the MoM's one (I know you want to be original, but this is one is justified)

That Cockatrice looks very generalized, which is good for us, so thank you for this piece. It was anyway planned to be looking more or less like that, with a reference to MM6 Cockatrice a.k.a. "Agar's Pet":


Quote :
It's like saying there is no logic to the evolution, because the evolving beings didn't really know what they were doing.
Wrong, what I said in that message simply means that there was no serious approach behind the lineup. It's good that you study mythology in the university, but NWC lineup designers obviously didn't. It was composed by a person who doesn't care about mythological precision, and this is the way Heroes 2 are designed - having some anchors, but they don't follow the details you try to pose as "game-defining" and "making the game better" to me.

Besides, I already explained why I didn't follow the "all hybrids go to Warlock" principle, and probably I should have also mentioned that in 2017 it's purely out of question to put the Satyr in a forest setting. It just fits there and fits near Unicorns and Druids as shown in Heroes IV, regardless if it's Greek or Nordic. You again try to find logic in the lineups explaining that "Satyr originally is a drunkard and living problem..." but I already told you not to do that and disregard the "original concept" of a creature. In popular culture the Satyrs are written as flute-playing happy creatures which are associated with fun and joy. Explain the Boar in the classic Wizard lineup first if you like to find logic in Heroes 2, then feel free to suggest anything. I'll save your time - it's just a filler and doesn't have any logic in being there. The Toad actually could take its place in Heroes 2 beta, and then you try to tell me that people who designed Heroes 2 really kept well with mythology and stuff. Well, let's be more open: in the case of Satyr 95% of players would approve because they already played Heroes IV and will take that as a reference. Yes, the atmosphere of the Preserve faction is a little different, but that at least solves some of our problems without duplicating Heroes 3.

In fact, the origins of middle european fairy tale concepts are also not so happy and kind as well as the fairy tales were themselves. Ever heard about raped Sleeping Beauty or torn feet parts of Cinderella's sisters who tried to fit their feet in a shoe? What really makes sense for Heroes 2 is the popular sweet-dream interpretation. Even the skeletons and zombies are smiling. Smile

You could influence on the discussions back in 2013, but right now it's far from convenient to bring any changes in the following situation. No one questions the Satyr or the Harpy, everyone questions the Gnome or possibly the Beholder, and these people are right because the visuals is what really makes the Heroes 2 atmosphere, and not the mythological precision.

Quote :
Again, the Phoenix could be a special case due to its close appereance to the Firebird, which is a common fairy-tale creature - as you know. The name could have been changed the same way the Frog got changed into a Toad.
I am not interested in changing native Heroes 2 assets beyond necessary. Changing Phoenix's name for the sake of mythological precision is again not the case to discuss. While there can be a real few people who would approve such a decision, other 99% of players who love Heroes 2 as is will say that it's not in the spirit of their game.

Quote :
- Female Satyrs - their fun-loving nature would seem more fitting with the current line-up if they were simply women. It wouldn't be that much of a deal in this game as Trolls are normally rarely seen as females.
I've never heard of a female Satyr, nor I've ever seen it - neither in mythology, nor in popular culture. A female Troll or Ogre is a completely different case and it was used numerous times everywhere, including video games of that age. So, no.

Quote :
- Mermaids - the problem with color of the scales could be fixed by giving them red scales (I haven't seen black-horsed centaurs before), and, if they had tridents, they could have upgrades with blue scales.
- Already present as an adventure object.
- Questionable body because the snake-like "leg part" is already overused since it is present for the Medusa and Hydra. It's not Heroes 3 where this creature would fit perfectly, there are less limitations on snake-shaped creatures.
- I understand that humanoids are not the best choice, but this limitation is too hard to fulfill so I put it down, while for snakes there is less variety available.
- It's not beneficial to add a water-themed concept to a faction which is designed purely for the forests without any specific reasons in lore or stuff. One way or another, the Mermaid could only be a questionable neutral creature, just like it was in Heroes IV, not being present as a creature in older parts of the series.

Quote :
- Bears - the Owlbears were indeed most fitting visually with the other creatures. Bears, if done right (as big as possible), could be seen as something more than simple fillers, they also have a strong fairy-tale feeling to them.
- The Owlbears were, but it's a D&D creature, too hard to fit to popular culture.
- Bears are part of mythology (if even) not covered by Heroes 2 concept. Having different mammals (Boar, Wolf) and having even the Boar's name already too similar to "bear" is a very, very questionable point itself from the point of design, which is stronger for me than mythological precision which would make me rename "Medusa" to "Gorgon", to satisfy the "original terms". So, not interested.


In short, I must remind that we don't need suggestions. What really concerns me is the 3rd level of the Wizard (for v0.9 and later), where could really be some useful ideas. Arguing like above is purely useless, it's not going to change my mind because I don't see any problems there, but see a lot of problems in trying to tilt the equilibrium in favor of a certain person's preferences which obviously don't correlate with the majority which is more or less satisfied with the current turn of events. There are surely people who don't like the current solutions and try to enforce their own point of view on the development of the lineups (including really absurd cases), but trying to rearrange everything once again will not bring us any close to the long time anticipated release of the beta, if all my other arguments are not convincing enough for you.

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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-03-01, 09:24

Quote :
Wrong, what I said in that message simply means that there was no serious approach behind the lineup. It's good that you study mythology in the university, but NWC lineup designers obviously didn't. It was composed by a person who doesn't care about mythological precision, and this is the way Heroes 2 are designed - having some anchors, but they don't follow the details you try to pose as "game-defining" and "making the game better" to me.

Again, I'm just saying that understanding how things become canonical through the years is just an enlighting experience. I am already your fan and don't really have anything against your ideas even if they would be totally out of place - it's still good to see someone else's vision. I just know how I looked at this game when I was younger and how I look at this game now. It feels nice to understand a bit more. I am still very young, and so are you, so helping each other see more seemed like a proper thing to do. I didn't know about the heraldic stances before, so thank you.

Quote :
Explain the Boar in the classic Wizard lineup first if you like to find logic in Heroes 2, then feel free to suggest anything.
Like I said before, the Wizard and the Necromancer are a bit different from the classic four classes from Heroes I. My opninions would be more appropriate with the old ones.

Quote :
in the case of Satyr 95% of players would approve because they already played Heroes IV and will take that as a reference
If the original creators of the HoMM II created the game using surveys for each new creature, the game would look totally different in the end. It's good to know opinions, but that's not all there is to it.

Quote :
In fact, the origins of middle european fairy tale concepts are also not so happy and kind as well as the fairy tales were themselves. Ever heard about raped Sleeping Beauty or torn feet parts of Cinderella's sisters who tried to fit their feet in a shoe? What really makes sense for Heroes 2 is the popular sweet-dream interpretation. Even the skeletons and zombies are smiling.
Yes, and the Little Red Riding Hood was a story telling young girls how to not get raped by those hairy, evil men. Still, you can't really say no to the drooling wolves and those angry cyclopes Wink

Quote :
You could influence on the discussions back in 2013, but right now it's far from convenient to bring any changes in the following situation. No one questions the Satyr or the Harpy, everyone questions the Gnome or possibly the Beholder, and these people are right because the visuals is what really makes the Heroes 2 atmosphere, and not the mythological precision.
I'm not really talking here about the cold mythological precision. All those small things that invisibly build a creature as a vision in a culture are what make us feel strongly when we see them. Look at the Minotaur for example - all the cultural reference it has make it such an emotionally impactful creature. The creators didn't really need to know all the story behind it, because they already had the cultural feeling that makes it easy to visualise and to simply put it in a right place. I'm only talking about the emotions here - all the stories just build them up. You may already know, that the best way to create things is by using a pyramid approach. If you start just to draw straight away, it always feels bland. If you start with too much information and try to crystalize it, each look at this creature will make you feel something deeper.
And indeed the gnome is the biggest problem. I might think about it. The Beholder might be fine if you make its dwelling something like an 'Alchemist's Asylum' (Sanctuary for outlawed alchemists). That way it will fit with the 'Guardian' feeling Warlock's creatures have.

Quote :
I am not interested in changing native Heroes 2 assets beyond necessary. Changing Phoenix's name for the sake of mythological precision is again not the case to discuss. While there can be a real few people who would approve such a decision, other 99% of players who love Heroes 2 as is will say that it's not in the spirit of their game.
No I don't want the name changed. I am just saying that the Heroes II Phoenix is the Firebird in disguise, so there are possibly no Greek creatures among the Sorceress' units. You can see that the creators valued the Phoenixes more than the Firebirds in the Heroes III, while the Firebirds look closer to the Heroes II Phoenixes. That's all.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-03-02, 03:02

That feel when you have to waste a pretty neat-looking texture just to make it fit to a H2 townscreen Smile


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PostSubject: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-03-02, 07:35

Orzie, do you remember idea when Derwish castle townscreen is shown in night, to fit style of image from old disney aladdin game?
Dragging this idea furher you coul'd add new variation of desert battle - during night.
Maybe some derwish ability woul'd let him attack during night with some bonuses...

Of course i understand, that adding something like this woul'd waste much time and effort, and for now no one here is able to do so.
Anyway look:



Not all concepts have to be used, this maybe will be usefull somewhere in the far future or never. Smile
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-03-02, 12:01

Cool stuff!

My proposition for Wizard's unit:



Gremlin
Lvl 4 medium/fast walker (350 gold, maybe some special power like breaking walls or something)

I understand Golem and Roc are close in statistics already, but lvl 4 would be the best place for this unit. Wizard seems to be middle/end game specialist, so he shouldn't have good early creatures anyway. This one would be a decent walker unit that can actually get to its enemies, unlike the Golem, which is more of a guarding unit. Three similar statistically units next to each other might not be that bad with the Wizard, as it makes the line-up feel a bit more static and calm.


EDIT:
Perhaps a better and more biblical creature would be a different one. There is the Behemoth in the form of Titan, there is Ziz in the form of Roc, so there could be a creature representing the Leviathan. Pure water unit won't fit here however, but the Wizard's canyons could have some sort of a waterfall. To make it different from Warlock's it could be named 'Cascade'. It is actually hard to come up with a well known giant water creature, that would fit here. Sea serpent or Kraken are out of the option for Wizard. Salamandre also feels more fitting with Warlock. As I imagine it, it could look like Heroes IV hydra with only one head, but more with gracious stance, like the Disciples II Wyvern. It's skin color could be a classic human skin tone, a bit like axolotl's. But I'm not sure what should it be named.
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PostSubject: Re: H3SW: General Graphics discussion   2017-03-04, 06:28

So here's what we approximately can have for v0.8.



Of course there are a lot of impurities (oh, please don't look at the sky, forget about the sky), but frankly, even despite I got a serious level up while struggling with this piece, I am virtually exhausted and wouldn't like to return to the Knight townscreen after some rest. Without Kivo and Agar I wouldn't be able to make it at all. Throw your comments if you have any, and after some final preparations I will be making our 6th promo screenshot featuring this image, the last one before the closed beta test. For now, gotta go to sleep.

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